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09-09-2009, 02:21 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I contend that the heart of the market is not going towards full frame. Too big and too costly. Instead, the heart of the market will be fought between APS-C and Micro 4/3rds. There is enough room for Pentax there.
Full frame may be too costly at the moment, but the Leica M9 shows that full frame doesn't need to be too big. Granted, the M9 has no mirror or large viewfinder assembly, but it shows that a FF SLR could potentially be about the size of an LX.

I'm not saying that the SLR market is undoubtedly moving toward FF dominance, but I think that the prices and sizes of FF could decrease significanly. Personally, I would jump at the chance to buy an LX, or even K-7, sized FF camera, if it were priced below 2 grand.

09-09-2009, 02:24 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
I also agree. I don't think Pentax will make a FF camera anytime soon.
another vote for this one..

I just can't see them introducing FF lens line up (though some could argue that with 31, 43, 50, 50 macro, 77, 100 macro, 200, 300 and I'm not sure about 60-250, there isn't many gaps to fill) now when they invested so heavilly into APSC lineup. Anyway, I think in APSC segment they stand a good chance IMO.

BR
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09-09-2009, 02:36 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Canon, Nikon, and now Leica make significant product introductions around APS-C cameras, yet some still think that APS-C is a dead end, that if Pentax doesn't go full-frame now than they will perish.

The IQ of the current crop of APS-C dSLRs now rivals that of older full frame dSLRs. In a couple of years they will undoubtedly advance and have IQ rivaling the current crop of FF dSLRs. There will always be a want (if not absolute need) of the best image quality, but how many people really need IQ beyond what APS-C can provide now and in the future? Are there really that many people making a living selling giant gallery-quality prints?

I contend that the heart of the market is not going towards full frame. Too big and too costly. Instead, the heart of the market will be fought between APS-C and Micro 4/3rds. There is enough room for Pentax there.
well said indeed --- just look at all of the latest introductions of APS stuff this year from alot of different manufacturers. Sorry to say this to the folks who feel that APS-C is going to die out, I just don't believe it anymore. There is already a very large established customer base who have APS-C equipment and the camera companies are selling alot more of the APS-C stuff than the FF stuff. So it is in their best interests to keep the APS side going.

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09-09-2009, 02:58 PM   #19
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FF camera sized as LX would be a dream come true. But, there is no way it would cost below 2 grand, ever. Sony is going for a loss with their 2K mark on A850, and they are going to get it all back from lens sales.

Contrary to Sony, i have (almost) all the lenses I need for FF, and I think most of "FF moaners" here are in similar position.

09-09-2009, 03:32 PM   #20
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This is what I think from experiences on Kodak sensors on different cameras (M8 etc)

If Pentax started using APS-C CCD sensors from Kodak in their cameras it would be a step down in ISO performance. M8 was worse than K10D on high ISO, above ISO640 was horrible. If one hadn't bought one for endless amouns of money and needed to justify your purchase with rants about "film like grain" and yadda yadda this wouldn't be disputed at all.

I guess the M9, unless they have done something really impressive that I couldn't see when I tried it earlier today, is about the same in ISO performance as the K-7, at most 1 EV step better. This is easily countered by SR (1 EV in shutter speed does almost nothing for motion blur).

Size is not much better in the M9, I have tried both K-7 with pancakes and M9 and they are pretty close in that aspect.

So what you really get from the Leica M-system right now is availability of unmatched Leica lenses, the DOF of 35mm film and a optimized rangefinder manual focus camera.

And this is actually enough for me to want the M9.

I adore the Leica lens quality, and the availability of prime lenses.
I also like manual focusing with a rangefinder camera.
The feel and look of 35mm film is also something I like alot.

But I have no interest in justifying such a high price for such a low-specced camera.
So M9 is not for me until I get rich and get other, posing priorities.
09-09-2009, 05:21 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Votesh Quote
Full frame may be too costly at the moment, but the Leica M9 shows that full frame doesn't need to be too big. Granted, the M9 has no mirror or large viewfinder assembly, but it shows that a FF SLR could potentially be about the size of an LX.

I'm not saying that the SLR market is undoubtedly moving toward FF dominance, but I think that the prices and sizes of FF could decrease significanly. Personally, I would jump at the chance to buy an LX, or even K-7, sized FF camera, if it were priced below 2 grand.
It should be interesting if and when a company makes a 35mm DSLR the size of an LX. But I'm not expecting it to happen anytime soon, as some of Pentax's core technologies take up space: in-body stabilization and in-body AF motor, in addition to the usual mirror and viewfinder assembly. Maybe a couple more miniaturization advances down the line, and we may be able to have it. The K-7 is a right step in that direction.
09-09-2009, 07:19 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by ilya80 Quote
FF camera sized as LX would be a dream come true. But, there is no way it would cost below 2 grand, ever. Sony is going for a loss with their 2K mark on A850, and they are going to get it all back from lens sales.

Contrary to Sony, i have (almost) all the lenses I need for FF, and I think most of "FF moaners" here are in similar position.
same thing with Sony, you can find truckloads of FF Minolta lenses that are comparable with Sony FF cameras.
09-09-2009, 07:29 PM   #23
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every traveling pro photographer that I know keep Leica rangefinder in there bag, and as far as i know they will jump on FF version of this camera ASAP. This is going to be quite big for Leica.
Looks like Pentax is going to be the only camera maker without FF option pretty soon.

09-09-2009, 11:11 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by awo425 Quote
every traveling pro photographer that I know keep Leica rangefinder in there bag, and as far as i know they will jump on FF version of this camera ASAP. This is going to be quite big for Leica.
Looks like Pentax is going to be the only camera maker without FF option pretty soon.
So Olympus isn't a camera maker, then?

If not, then apparently Panasonic isn't either (I know they make lots of other things as well, but they do make rather a lot of fairly good things they call cameras, none of them with a 35mm sized sensor).

Maybe I missed something, but I don't believe the anticipated Samsung full-frame camera has arrived yet. Obviously, they're not a (real) camera maker, either. Oh, and then there's Fuji. Enough said.

I'm also a little puzzled by people who claim that Pentax doesn't have the resources to develop a 35 mm sized camera. I suspect that Pentax simply haven't committed the resources to it, yet. This is probably what happened with Leica, up to now. Considering that they're about to start selling their bigger-than-35 mm sensor S series, and that they were in danger of disappearing just a few years ago, it's tempting to start drawing comparisons between Leica and Pentax, but they're in different markets so caution would have to be exercised.

If Pentax are developing or are going to develop a 35mm sized sensor camera, logic tells me that they're most likely to do so after the launch of the 645D. Personally, I think that's OK, because it allows them to profit from the economics of an increasing scale of larger sensor production, not to mention allied technological developments.

Like a number of other people on this forum, I'm hanging onto my full-frame glass, which is fine for APS-C work, and hoping for a full-frame Pentax in the future. In the meantime, there's nothing to lose.
09-10-2009, 03:14 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by awo425 Quote
same thing with Sony, you can find truckloads of FF Minolta lenses that are comparable with Sony FF cameras.
Well Sony have Zeiss designed 16-35mm 1:2.8, 35mm 1:1.4, 135mm 1:1.8 and 70-200mm 1:2.8 and each of these lenses are giving me hard-ons on regular basis.

If I was a Sony user I`d have started saving already.
09-10-2009, 04:17 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by ilya80 Quote
Well Sony have Zeiss designed 16-35mm 1:2.8, 35mm 1:1.4, 135mm 1:1.8 and 70-200mm 1:2.8 and each of these lenses are giving me hard-ons on regular basis.

If I was a Sony user I`d have started saving already.
35/1.4G and 70-200/2.8 G are former Minolta.
To say honest, 35/1.4 is one of the worst lens with such price.
70-200/2.8 is rather good.
09-10-2009, 05:35 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
I hesitated a bit to post this on this forum, but since I want to discuss about sensor and not the cameras itselves, I post it here.

As you know, the Pentax 645D will mostly get its sensor from Kodak.

Leica has just been presenting today the M9, first full frame of the brand, and the X1, an APSC, fixed focal lens compact camera. Both sensors are produced by Kodak.

The exiting news for Pentaxian is that now we have a new, independant maker of an APSC sensor and of a full-frame sensor. And this new maker has already commercial ties with Pentax (or most likely)

This creates the first real opportunity for Pentax to produce its full frame DSLR, at least this is more likely than if Pentax was to get its sensor from Sony (a Pentax camera would be in direct competition with the A900 / A850, on contrary of the D3X) or from Samsung (FF sensor has become a gost)

To knowledge, the list of FF sensor makers is the following :
- Canon,
- Sony / Nikon,
- Kodak

As said numerous times, the Pentax / Samsung partnership is getting colder and colder, and as a consequence the possibility of Samsung making a full frame chip is less likely than ever.

I see also the APSC sensor from Kodak as good new for the same reason as above, making Pentax less depending on Samsung strategic decisions for its own cameras.

What do you think ?
Pentax works with Samsung, Sony and Kodak, all of whom do or have said they will produce a FF sensor at some point. I think the opportunity is there for the taking when Pentax determines its ready for a FF camera. I personally don't see this happening anytime soon because in the spirit of Pentax, they'll announce it and then it will be some time before the product makes it to market. Pentax hasn't announced anything yet, nor do I anticipate they will with the k-m and something in around the k200/k20 level refreshes being due.

As for who Pentax should work with? Sony would sell their 24mp FF sensor for the right price, regardless whether or not Pentax would be competing with them. It just means that Sony would end up making more money because they'd be selling more sensors. Sony did this with the 10mp sensor that they, Pentax and Nikon all use(d). Samsung, in spite of any perceived 'chilling' in the relationship, would still work with Pentax if Pentax needed a FF sensor and would probably get a lot of Pentax aid in SLR design when they go back to the GX line, so that would be an ideal situation. Lastly, even though Kodak has worked with Pentax on the 645D project for the last age, no product has come to fruition. If I was Kodak, I'd be a whole lot gun-shy about working with Pentax on another product that might not make it to market at all.

The last thing to consider is that Pentax, while they do support legacy glass and still make FA ltd's, don't have anything resembling a current, comprehensive FF system. They've tossed their lot in with APS-C. They have to consider whether or not the cost of developing a FF body and new FF lenses will actually make them money. I honestly don't know if it would.
09-10-2009, 06:35 AM   #28
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Panasonic , FUJI, Samsung. Who are you kidding. We are talking about DSLRs here not P&S. between this 3 even FUJI is absolutely not significant, how many cameras they build a year? 1000 . The other 2 are just clones.
you forgot Sigma, another significant manufacturer of DSLRs

Olympus will have FF in addition to 4/3 soon, I have no doubts about this.
Pentax, probably, as well, too late as usual. By the time most of the current userbase will move to another systems. News and hopes about 645D is at least 4 years old. Everybody who wanted to build MF announced it later, and already released it.

QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
So Olympus isn't a camera maker, then?

If not, then apparently Panasonic isn't either (I know they make lots of other things as well, but they do make rather a lot of fairly good things they call cameras, none of them with a 35mm sized sensor).

Maybe I missed something, but I don't believe the anticipated Samsung full-frame camera has arrived yet. Obviously, they're not a (real) camera maker, either. Oh, and then there's Fuji. Enough said.

I'm also a little puzzled by people who claim that Pentax doesn't have the resources to develop a 35 mm sized camera. I suspect that Pentax simply haven't committed the resources to it, yet. This is probably what happened with Leica, up to now. Considering that they're about to start selling their bigger-than-35 mm sensor S series, and that they were in danger of disappearing just a few years ago, it's tempting to start drawing comparisons between Leica and Pentax, but they're in different markets so caution would have to be exercised.

If Pentax are developing or are going to develop a 35mm sized sensor camera, logic tells me that they're most likely to do so after the launch of the 645D. Personally, I think that's OK, because it allows them to profit from the economics of an increasing scale of larger sensor production, not to mention allied technological developments.

Like a number of other people on this forum, I'm hanging onto my full-frame glass, which is fine for APS-C work, and hoping for a full-frame Pentax in the future. In the meantime, there's nothing to lose.
09-10-2009, 06:38 AM   #29
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QuoteQuote:
I think the opportunity is there for the taking when Pentax determines its ready for a FF camera. I personally don't see this happening anytime soon because in the spirit of Pentax, they'll announce it and then it will be some time before the product makes it to market. Pentax hasn't announced anything yet, nor do I anticipate they will with the k-m and something in around the k200/k20 level refreshes being due.
True, but if they did, a lot less would buy the aps-c-only lenses. Hoya are too smart for this I guess.

Actually, have Pentax released anything recently apart from the DA15 ltd that only covers a crop sensor? I have read testamonials that the 60-250 and 55 are both covering FF. Maybe this is the reason that we haven't heard of a 11-16 or the earlier road mapped DA* 30? Just speculating
09-10-2009, 06:45 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by awo425 Quote
Olympus will have FF in addition to 4/3 soon, I have no doubts about this.
3 systems: 4/3, m4/3 and "FF"? And unlike Canon/Nikon, that means incompatible (i.e. impossible to mount, or impossible to mount without an adapter) lenses as the registration distance will be different.
Hard to believe.
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