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09-10-2009, 07:07 AM   #31
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How do you know it would never cost below 2 grand? Just because Sony may be losing money now with it's FF bodies says nothing about what FF will cost in the future.

QuoteOriginally posted by ilya80 Quote
FF camera sized as LX would be a dream come true. But, there is no way it would cost below 2 grand, ever. Sony is going for a loss with their 2K mark on A850, and they are going to get it all back from lens sales.

Contrary to Sony, i have (almost) all the lenses I need for FF, and I think most of "FF moaners" here are in similar position.


09-10-2009, 07:11 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
3 systems: 4/3, m4/3 and "FF"? And unlike Canon/Nikon, that means incompatible (i.e. impossible to mount, or impossible to mount without an adapter) lenses as the registration distance will be different.
Hard to believe.
time will tell. we all have seen companies come and go, and mount come and go.
09-10-2009, 08:22 AM   #33
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I just picked the LX because I think it is the best Pentax SLR design, but by all means I would be satisfied with a K-7 or K10/20D sized FF body. I was just making the point that the argument that FF means huge camera doesn't really fit anymore. The M9 has shown that premise to be false.

I did leave out stuff like AF motor and stabilization system in my last post, but my ZX-10 is mighty small and still has AF, and the K-7 is just the right size for me and has AF, SR, and numerous other bells and whistles.

I think a FF K-7 sized camera would be superb, especially if released by Pentax. I also think it could be a hit if released by Pentax. A Pentax FF would have a much different utility for most people than current FF SLRs have, which I think would be aided by a small form factor. I think a small FF from Pentax could entice users from other systems, and new FF users, if the IQ was good and Pentax could get some more FF lenses into production.

People wouldn't come to Pentax looking for a camera to slap a 500mm f4 lens on to go shoot high FPS sports shots, or anything like that. However, I bet there would be huge interest in a small, fully weathersealed, FF DSLR with in-body image stabilization from people interested in most other arenas of photography. Photojournalism, landscape/nature, street, concert/performance and travel photography are a few that I think would embrace a small FF camera. The benefit of a smaller, lighter kit would of course be a main attraction of a small FF DSLR in these fields. Of course, you can already have a kit that small and light if you use APS-C, but if you could have FF at that size you would also have the benefit of increased FOV with equivalent FL lenses, and better high ISO performance. In the fields I listed either, or both, of those improvements over APS-C would be valued by many.

Anyway, that's my rant. I don't really see a small FF in the near future for Pentax, but I would sure love to, and I think that at around $2000 it could be a huge hit.

QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
It should be interesting if and when a company makes a 35mm DSLR the size of an LX. But I'm not expecting it to happen anytime soon, as some of Pentax's core technologies take up space: in-body stabilization and in-body AF motor, in addition to the usual mirror and viewfinder assembly. Maybe a couple more miniaturization advances down the line, and we may be able to have it. The K-7 is a right step in that direction.
09-10-2009, 01:40 PM   #34
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The thing to learn is about how to advance a camera maker.

Andreas Kaufmann is a Leica customer (with deep e-commerce pockets).

He then aquired Leica

He started out by hiring an US manager to "turn Leica around".

Soon after, the very same manager got fired for being clueless and damaging the brand (cost cutting and advertizement was all he knew about).

Andreas now is running Leica himself and he got balls: Develop new lenses, X1, M9 and S2 with new lens system all at the same time with opening several Leica stores in the Apple style.

Still, he told a German managament magazine to be profitable by the end of the year.


Maybe, other makers just need more vision. Current dSLRs are not very creative with K-7 still being the most creative of the crowd.


If there is anything to learn from leica: Pentax, be more innovative! Who delivers sensors is irrelevant.

09-10-2009, 02:15 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Canon, Nikon, and now Leica make significant product introductions around APS-C cameras, yet some still think that APS-C is a dead end, that if Pentax doesn't go full-frame now than they will perish.

(Paragraph deleted)..........

I contend that the heart of the market is not going towards full frame. Too big and too costly. Instead, the heart of the market will be fought between APS-C and Micro 4/3rds. There is enough room for Pentax there.
I second that. Not only because APS-C dominates and even 4/3 outsell FF that only capture about 5% of the market, but because Pentax is committed to the 645D that will be their answer to FF ...I just can't see Pentax with 3 different formats.
09-10-2009, 02:26 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
If there is anything to learn from leica: Pentax, be more innovative! Who delivers sensors is irrelevant.
Right on ...the K-7 shows what Pentax can produce and they have always been innovators, just look at the list of firsts from the pentaprism to TTL metering and SLR with built in flash, and the list goes on.

However, the one difference between Pentax and Leica is the markets to which they cater. Leica does not compete with the likes of Canon, Nikon and Sony, Pentax does, and I think need to be stronger marketers to create a brand awareness amongst the plebeian masses that do not know the history and reputation of the Pentax brand.
09-10-2009, 03:53 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by redpigeons Quote
FF leica!!!!!!!!! <3 <3 <3

its time to open a new saving acount... but she will be mine oh yes she will be mine
$17, 000 with 50mm F0.95 lens !
Amazon.com: Leica M9 18MP Digital Range Finder Camera (Black): Electronics

Leica | 50mm f/0.95 Noctilux-M Aspherical Manual Focus | 11-602

09-10-2009, 04:14 PM   #38
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Well, Leica hires good copy writers anyway. Will be interesting to see if the M9 blows everything else out of the water, especially with no anti-alias filter.

Jack

09-10-2009, 04:31 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Votesh Quote
I just picked the LX because I think it is the best Pentax SLR design, but by all means I would be satisfied with a K-7 or K10/20D sized FF body. I was just making the point that the argument that FF means huge camera doesn't really fit anymore. The M9 has shown that premise to be false.

I did leave out stuff like AF motor and stabilization system in my last post, but my ZX-10 is mighty small and still has AF, and the K-7 is just the right size for me and has AF, SR, and numerous other bells and whistles.

I think a FF K-7 sized camera would be superb, especially if released by Pentax. I also think it could be a hit if released by Pentax. A Pentax FF would have a much different utility for most people than current FF SLRs have, which I think would be aided by a small form factor. I think a small FF from Pentax could entice users from other systems, and new FF users, if the IQ was good and Pentax could get some more FF lenses into production.

People wouldn't come to Pentax looking for a camera to slap a 500mm f4 lens on to go shoot high FPS sports shots, or anything like that. However, I bet there would be huge interest in a small, fully weathersealed, FF DSLR with in-body image stabilization from people interested in most other arenas of photography. Photojournalism, landscape/nature, street, concert/performance and travel photography are a few that I think would embrace a small FF camera. The benefit of a smaller, lighter kit would of course be a main attraction of a small FF DSLR in these fields. Of course, you can already have a kit that small and light if you use APS-C, but if you could have FF at that size you would also have the benefit of increased FOV with equivalent FL lenses, and better high ISO performance. In the fields I listed either, or both, of those improvements over APS-C would be valued by many.

Anyway, that's my rant. I don't really see a small FF in the near future for Pentax, but I would sure love to, and I think that at around $2000 it could be a huge hit.
I agree. A smallish, relatively-affordable 35mm Pentax DSLR to slap those lovely Limiteds on will move units, especially when ranged against the $7000 or so M9 body. The demand is certainly there for compact high-performance cameras with DSLR-sized sensors, as evidenced by the rising popularity of m4/3 and the longing by many over the M9 if it didn't have that expensive price.

So far, none of the current 35mm DSLR manufacturers have tapped into that market yet, and I suspect Pentax can carve out a nice niche by making a small 35mm DSLR. They're already getting good rep for their K-7, I hope they continue to build on that.
09-10-2009, 05:11 PM   #40
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micro-PK mount, anyone?
09-10-2009, 05:19 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
If there is anything to learn from leica: Pentax, be more innovative! Who delivers sensors is irrelevant.
Exactly.

Give us a smaller K7, one that reaches true "small camera" status, not just " a little smaller but who really cares' status. Make it smaller than any Pentax DSLR so far. Yes, it can be done.

I have been saying this for ages, but the fact that Leica has a full-frame that small proves me right. It can be done.

Put all the good features into it... no compromises. Quieter than the K-7, so it starts to compete with rangefinders for stealth.

Design the interface for direct control. No modes. Use the 645 as a guide. Heck, Leica copies it, why doesn't Pentax?

The result would be a killer compact DSLR with full access to all the great k-mount lenses.
09-10-2009, 05:36 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
Their price point is more on the D3X side, the online photographer made an interresting article about the Leica phenomenon
Another point striking me ...

Well, everybody keeps saying how expensive the Leica M 9 is (7k$).

But:
Leica's Full Frame is only 10% more expensive than Leica's APS-H!

Leica M 8.2: 5000€ Leica M8.2 schwarz Preisvergleich bei Geizhals.at Deutschland
Leica M 9): 5500€ Leica M9 schwarz Preisvergleich bei Geizhals.at Deutschland

BTW, there is a bargain offer for Leica M8, at 25% off normal price:
Leica M 8: 3000€ (normally 4000€) Leica M8 schwarz Foto Köster
09-10-2009, 05:48 PM   #43
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What I know is:

Kodak's involvement in all things digital have been a shambolic flop.

The Leica user base have the financial means to buy the new cameras, not so the average Pentax user. The typical Pentax user is too penny pinching or simply don't have the ready means to buy even current gear, what more FF, digital 645 or a slew of new products that Pentax may introduce down the road. To illustrate the difference, we get vociferous hear howls of protest whenever there is even a smidgen of a Pentax price increase but nary a whisper among Leica users...

Many armchair commentators here can theorize and speculate ad infinitum of what Pentax can, should or must do but I'm dead certain most aren't prepared to, or won't pay a dime for whatever gets rolled out.
The challenge to Pentax is not Leica but Olympus/Panasonic and the micro 4/3 cameras. Leica gets so much money from licensing it's name on Panasonic cameras (like the uber hot LX-3) that it provides them the constant cash flow to develop the new products.
09-11-2009, 07:50 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Many armchair commentators here can theorize and speculate ad infinitum of what Pentax can, should or must do but I'm dead certain most aren't prepared to, or won't pay a dime for whatever gets rolled out.
The challenge to Pentax is not Leica but Olympus/Panasonic...
First of all, I don't think anyone here has stated that Pentax needs to compete with or strive to be like Leica.

Secondly, I think you greatly underestimate Pentax users, and photo/camera nuts in general. Not willing to spend a dime on new equipment? Have you seen the response to the K-7?

Sure, we love our old glass, and many still love their old film cameras and DSLRs, but there are plenty of people here that can and do buy new Pentax equipment. Personally, I've spent several thousand(around 4 to be precise) dollars on NEW Pentax equipment in the last 2 years. I would absolutely buy a FF Pentax, and I'm sure plenty of other Pentax shooters would too, if it were priced right. It may take selling some of my other gear, but I would get one. By no means do I need it, which is why I'm happily shooting with APS-C cameras now, but I would like some of the perks that come along with it.

I also think a small, fully weathersealed Pentax FF would attract shooters from other brands because it could offer something other FF cameras(aside from the M9) don't. It wouldn't be for those that need the meatiest spec sheet, but for those that wanted something small and fairly light that could be fairly inconspicuous in most situations, yet still offer the andvantages of FF.

Most people don't need FF, and APS-C serves them perfectly well, but there are still plenty that want it. I'm one of those, but I don't care to go to another brand to get it.
09-12-2009, 08:36 AM   #45
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Just speculation, but I suspect Pentax has a FF prototype around.
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