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09-12-2009, 08:43 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Votesh Quote

Secondly, I think you greatly underestimate Pentax users, and photo/camera nuts in general. Not willing to spend a dime on new equipment? Have you seen the response to the K-7?
What I notice is that before K-7:

'C'mon, K20 offers about nothing on top of K10 and is too slow at about everything, I won't buy it'.

Now:

'C'mon, every other brand have something better, even D300s is better and Canon goes 18Mpix K-7 is expensive, no I won't upgrade.'

I'm sorry but a lot of Pentax customers (not pointing to anybody, not even to the forum guys here) are only causing more problems to Pentax. Those will be the first to moan if things turn to sh*t.

09-12-2009, 11:56 AM   #47
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Thibs, I think you are wrong and being unfair.

Certainly if I had a K10D I would also see little reason to shell out full retail price for the K20D on initial release. And so I would be one of those people you are somehow blaming. But that is because many of us are not made of money and don't think we have to buy every body released into the world.

Likewise, as an owner of the K20D I saw little reason to get the K-7. Really, skipping every other generation makes good sense.

But this has nothing to do with comparing to other brands. Please don't assume that just because someone doesn't "upgrade" it's because we prefer other brands. (And what if we did? Other firms offer good camera gear as well.)

I think you are also wrong in implying that criticising the current offerings is bad for Pentax. If we do not say, loud and clear, what we want and prefer in a camera, then how is Pentax going to know what to improve?
09-13-2009, 06:13 AM   #48
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I would pay $2,700 for a FF K-7 with low light video features of the Canon 5D MKII.
09-13-2009, 07:32 AM   #49
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There was a time when I'd agree

There was a time when I'd agree, however $2700 for a full frame K Mount is too much money now. Sony has a 24mp full frame with inbody shake reduction for $1999 launch price. As Pentax does not offer image stabilized lenses I think the $1999 Sony is a better comparision, for me. The longer Pentax waits to join in the full game the less money they'll make per unit.

Canon has full frame
Nikon has full frame
Sony has full frame
Leica will have full frame

Leaving just Pentax and Olympus and Pansonic without full frame plans or intentions.

I think the Canon 7D will cut into Pentax potential K-7 sales, even though it cost $400 more. I can find Canon locally at several shops. There's zero pentax available locally, no one stocks the brand.



QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
I would pay $2,700 for a FF K-7 with low light video features of the Canon 5D MKII.


09-13-2009, 07:48 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Thibs, I think you are wrong and being unfair.

Certainly if I had a K10D I would also see little reason to shell out full retail price for the K20D on initial release. And so I would be one of those people you are somehow blaming. But that is because many of us are not made of money and don't think we have to buy every body released into the world.

Likewise, as an owner of the K20D I saw little reason to get the K-7. Really, skipping every other generation makes good sense.

But this has nothing to do with comparing to other brands. Please don't assume that just because someone doesn't "upgrade" it's because we prefer other brands. (And what if we did? Other firms offer good camera gear as well.)

I think you are also wrong in implying that criticising the current offerings is bad for Pentax. If we do not say, loud and clear, what we want and prefer in a camera, then how is Pentax going to know what to improve?
I'd like to agree with you, beleive me
And I really really wish to be wrong
09-13-2009, 02:12 PM   #51
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QuoteQuote:
Leica will have full frame
Right, $7k for the body and $10k for the 50mm F0.95 lens.
09-14-2009, 05:10 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Canon has full frame
Nikon has full frame
Sony has full frame
Leica will have full frame
Full frame blah blah. From a financial perspective who cares.

Actually Leica will be the only camera maker to have a camera in every sensor size segment from compact to 4/3 to APS to FF to MF. Albeit only one camera in each segment.

Leica and Pentax will have MF. Will Pentax be worried? At Leica prices, I doubt it.

Leica and Olympus have micro APS. Will Oly, Panasonic and Samsung be awake nights? Probably not.

As Canon or Nikon I would not care less about any Leica camera. Leica as a premium brand can do what it likes and charge what it likes - as long as the products work well the typical Leica buyer will not regard price as an issue. But it will barely impinge on sales of the big two.

What would be odd would be Leica NOT having a FF camera given their premium market niche, but one thig is for sure, it wont be much of a low light camera.
09-14-2009, 05:27 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Full frame blah blah. From a financial perspective who cares.

Actually Leica will be the only camera maker to have a camera in every sensor size segment from compact to 4/3 to APS to FF to MF. Albeit only one camera in each segment.

Leica and Pentax will have MF. Will Pentax be worried? At Leica prices, I doubt it.

Leica and Olympus have micro APS. Will Oly, Panasonic and Samsung be awake nights? Probably not.

As Canon or Nikon I would not care less about any Leica camera. Leica as a premium brand can do what it likes and charge what it likes - as long as the products work well the typical Leica buyer will not regard price as an issue. But it will barely impinge on sales of the big two.

What would be odd would be Leica NOT having a FF camera given their premium market niche, but one thig is for sure, it wont be much of a low light camera.
Pentax has NOTHING now. No any MF or FF. No any micro APS-C or micro 4/3. No any compacts with fixed lens and APS-C sensor.
Only K-7. 645 and 67 systems are discountinued. Pentax is the weakest photo brand now.

Leica has expensive cameras, but the great.
S2, M9, X1 = the gems of photo world.
MF, FF and APS-C.
October, September and December of 2009.


Last edited by ogl; 09-14-2009 at 05:33 AM.
09-14-2009, 05:30 AM   #54
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Leica M9: Photographers ditch DSLR cameras news - Amateur Photographer - news, camera reviews, lens reviews, camera equipment guides, photography courses, competitions, photography forums

Photographers are getting fed up with carrying around great dollops of cameras… a wedding photographer has just traded in two Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II cameras,' he said
09-14-2009, 05:30 AM   #55
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If Full Frame is only 5% of the total DSLR market and given the market for DSLR's is dwindling in the current global economy, why offer a FF camera? It would be a money loser for Pentax. The number of people who can afford a $2000+ camera body is not that large and shrinking rapidly not growing. People who buy Leicas will always have that kind of money, period.

For Pentax, the equation would probably be how many customers am I going to lose if I don't offer a Full Frame vs. how much is going to cost to develop, build, advertise and inventory those FF cameras. Hard to see how they could make money trying to compete with Cannon and Nikon and whoever else for a 5% slice of the total DSLR market.

I would love a FF Pentax, but I can't afford a $2,000 camera body so I wouldn't be able to buy one anyway. As it stands I'm having trouble saving up for the K7.
09-14-2009, 05:40 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
If Full Frame is only 5% of the total DSLR market and given the market for DSLR's is dwindling in the current global economy, why offer a FF camera? It would be a money loser for Pentax. The number of people who can afford a $2000+ camera body is not that large and shrinking rapidly not growing. People who buy Leicas will always have that kind of money, period.

I would love a FF Pentax, but I can't afford a $2,000 camera body so I wouldn't be able to buy one anyway. As it stands I'm having trouble saving up for the K7.
Leica is smaller than Hoya. Much smaller.
ALL LEICA's divisions are less than 1000 employees.

Of course, if Pentax offers nothing interesting with the same SONY CMOS sensor (24 MP) in big body, such camera won't be popular.

If Pentax offers original FF camera, for example with new sensor and in very compact body with new FF compact WR lenses and unique features and withoutstanding IQ, it could be popular. Even for $2,000

Last edited by ogl; 09-14-2009 at 05:47 AM.
09-14-2009, 05:57 AM   #57
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"Even for $2000"? That's what the cheapest FF camera - the A850, not yet on the stores - costs, and I doubt Pentax could launch a cheaper one, while still making a profit (not in the near future, that is).
So it must be the cheapest, but also has some defining features - very compact, weather sealing, "withoutstanding IQ" and so on - in order to be "popular", right? No wonder Pentax don't jump with a FF... they know pentaxians are very, very hard to please
09-14-2009, 06:02 AM   #58
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QuoteQuote:
they know pentaxians are very, very hard to please
so are canonites, and nikonians, and olympians? hell, leicaphiles are probably the only ones who aren't difficult to please, as they will be more than happy to drop cash on whatever the ghost of Ernst Leitz puts his little red dot on.
09-14-2009, 06:24 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
"Even for $2000"? That's what the cheapest FF camera - the A850, not yet on the stores - costs, and I doubt Pentax could launch a cheaper one, while still making a profit (not in the near future, that is).
So it must be the cheapest, but also has some defining features - very compact, weather sealing, "withoutstanding IQ" and so on - in order to be "popular", right? No wonder Pentax don't jump with a FF... they know pentaxians are very, very hard to please
I think Pentaxians will be happy even with SONY 24 MP sensor in Pentax FF camera.

We will see FF DSLR lower than USD 2000 in the nearest 1-2 years. A850 is the first swallow. I think A850 will be USD1800-1900 close to the spring of 2010.
I can expect that FF DSLR cameras will be more than 5% of DSLR markets in the nearest future

Last edited by ogl; 09-14-2009 at 07:14 AM.
09-14-2009, 06:48 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
If Full Frame is only 5% of the total DSLR market and given the market for DSLR's is dwindling in the current global economy, why offer a FF camera?
I heavily doubt that this over a year old 5% figure still applies.

The FF segment was the fastest growing segment of all. The M9 is only 10% more expensive than the APS-H M8.2 which clearly shows that FF has become the commodity in the higher end.

With the Nikon D700 selling as good as the best selling non-Rebel Canon (Amazon rank 13, Canon 50D Amazon rank 11), and 5D2 and A850 being big hits too, I am sure that FF has far exceeded 10%., possibly approaching 20% already ...

Albeit newer, cheaper and with video, the D300s does NOT outsell the D700.

This is a VERY significant figure! Because HD video and FF are the only two features which make people upgrade in the saturated high end DSLR segment (K-7 is an exception because there was more room for improvement left, AF white balance, fps, size, ...).


I fear that in the segment above 1000$ street price, the market share of FF is approaching 50% rapidly now. And after HD video is in widespread availability, not offering neither FF nor ultra-mobility will kill the vendors.

What is a pitty as well is that the dying out FourThird splits Olympus user base into mFT and FF. Being as underdog as Pentax, Olympus users wanting true SLR would be glad to be able to find a new FF home in Pentax. If there would be the offer.


All I want to say is this: It may be plain stupid to ignore the fastest growing segments in the camera business (EVIL and FF) if you want a future. And I am sure Pentax isn't stupid. They just don't tell us ...

Last edited by falconeye; 09-14-2009 at 06:55 AM.
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