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09-14-2009, 11:58 PM   #76
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I have been reading this thread with interest and basically agree with the sentiment that Pentax will eventually have a FF DSLR. Why? Please read the article by Bob Atkins (link below) because he says it better than I can!

Full frame DSLRs - or not?

09-15-2009, 02:23 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by ozlizard Quote
I have been reading this thread with interest and basically agree with the sentiment that Pentax will eventually have a FF DSLR. Why? Please read the article by Bob Atkins (link below) because he says it better than I can!

Full frame DSLRs - or not?
@ Ozlizard

Bob Atkins made a lot of incorrect statements in this article.

1. Setting the limit of pixel race on APSC at 12MPx. The new Canon 7D is at 18MPx (so 50% more) and it is said to be ok on low light.
2. The marketing motto has found also other arguments than FF. 100% Pentaprism coverage, low light performance, image dynamic, frame rate, video, magnesium body, weather sealing are, depending on the brand also hot topics.

I'm seeing the word from the magazine slightly shifting from FF vs. APSC (for pro vs amateurs) to something a bit more subtle.
- The high end APSC cameras (Pentax K7, Nikon D300/s, Canon 50D / 7D) are called semi-pro. But I also read about the D300 that if you don't have to shoot under low light, the D300 is well worth the D700, provided you put "pro" glass on both of them.
- 12 to 15 MPx are enough to print on very large format (A2)
- The professional photography world is in deep crisis. Photo-reporters are the first victims of the press crisis. Budget for hardware are being lowered, I think Canon wanted to answer to this problem with the launch of the 7D.
- I have seen nowhere that the new Leica M9 was a "pro" camera. It is so expensive, that no pro-reporter would justify it against a Nikon D3 / D700 or a Canon 5DmkII / 1DmkIII, especially when the Leica lenses are so expensive (5000€ for a fast ultrawide...) It doesn't mean that no pro uses Leica, but it will remain a minority.
- On the contrary the new Leica S2 system is a domain where more and pros will be moving in my opinion. It is a weather sealed body, so it is much easier to get it out of the studio as compared to the other medium format systems. The Pentax 645d will be also in that tendency. (The medium format business model works by renting cameras, so the price of the system is less of a barrier here)
- I am also seeing a lot of movement back to film (that a lot of pros never left) Especially for the artistic part of the photo movement. Film is also a sign showing that you're part of some "aristocracy" of the photographer world. Just like vinyl is compared to the CD / MP3. I'm living in Paris where pro laboratory are still easily available so it may be only a local trend.

The technology is still improving a lot, and APSC sensors and electronics will be much better in 10 years. Of course it is also true for full frame and medium format. The prices will lower, and what is high end now will become accessible. But there is a limit to the size and bulk a photographer is willing to handle.

The online photographer made an article about the Weblen value we are talking about here, where Bob Atkins is missing the point, is that, true some wealthy user will want to follow the bigger, faster, better trend that will sell them marketing (and I'm predicting that in the future, "Medium format" will be the new must), but there will be still space for the "good enough" cameras that the pros, and realist amateurs are willing to buy.

Regards,
Guillaume
09-15-2009, 02:29 AM   #78
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Kodak has made 24x36 CMOS-sensors in the past, without an anti-alias filter. Those were mounted in the Kodak DCS 14/c and 14/n - which were Sigma DSLR-bodies with either Canon or Nikon mount. This project failed on the market, the market wasn't ready.

Some years ago, Kodak's CMOS projects went into the Cypress company for imaging technology, and Cypress announced in 2005 an 9Mp APS-C CMOS sensor, that - to my knowledge - no one used. It was based upon Kodak's 24x36 sensor.
Cypress 9MP APS-C CMOS sensor - photo.net
09-15-2009, 02:45 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Kodak has made 24x36 CMOS-sensors in the past, without an anti-alias filter. Those were mounted in the Kodak DCS 14/c and 14/n - which were Sigma DSLR-bodies with either Canon or Nikon mount. This project failed on the market, the market wasn't ready.

Some years ago, Kodak's CMOS projects went into the Cypress company for imaging technology, and Cypress announced in 2005 an 9Mp APS-C CMOS sensor, that - to my knowledge - no one used. It was based upon Kodak's 24x36 sensor.
Cypress 9MP APS-C CMOS sensor - photo.net
The project wasn't successful, the cameras were rather expensive and lack of features and noisy.
But 14 MP FF CMOS sensor offered outstanding IQ at lower ISO. Who has DCS are delighted with IQ and colour. As for Cypress - B&W version of 9 MP sensor was used in industry applications.

09-15-2009, 03:03 AM   #80
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Good post Guillaume.

I would add that it is a myth that professionals require the best equipment. Fanatics require the best, pros need only "good enough" for the job. Otherwise every pro would be shooting with primes, but most use zoom lenses for convenience and flexibility.

Wearing out bodies is also not a big deal. One doesn't need a camera to last 40 years when one has an assignment lasting 3 months. Just so long as one carries a replacement (all pros do) and can get service quickly and easily.

APS-C is a pro format. You can do a full magazine spread with an APSC image, or submit to a high end stock agency.
09-15-2009, 06:37 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Good post Guillaume.

I would add that it is a myth that professionals require the best equipment. Fanatics require the best, pros need only "good enough" for the job. Otherwise every pro would be shooting with primes, but most use zoom lenses for convenience and flexibility.

Wearing out bodies is also not a big deal. One doesn't need a camera to last 40 years when one has an assignment lasting 3 months. Just so long as one carries a replacement (all pros do) and can get service quickly and easily.

APS-C is a pro format. You can do a full magazine spread with an APSC image, or submit to a high end stock agency.
Quite. Having been involved in a demo with members of the NUJ (National Union of Journalists) regarding anti photography laws, I could not help but notice that most of them carried quite modest equipment, some of it quite battered and taped up. A few even had compacts. For a newspaper spread its all you need. Why get RSI if you dont need to?

APSC is fine for quality editorial work. In fact if you compare the 7D and 5D mk2, which one would you pick for journalism, wildlife or sport? Unlikely you'd pick the 5D but with 8fps I bet you see a few 7Ds in PJ hands.

And lets not forget that the favourite pro camera, the one on touchlines the world over, is a 1.3 crop 1D, not a FF at all.
09-15-2009, 03:03 PM   #82
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I pick this sentence from Bob Atkins article, which is full of correct and false statements:
Some people seem to look on lenses as investment vehicles that should hold their value and utility forever. I'm not quite sure why they apply this logic to lenses, but not to cars, TVs, VCRs etc
and contrast it with the following sentence from Leica's press conference:
Leica [cameras and lenses] are not made to last for life. They are made to last several spans of life.
I cannot understand why in some parts of this world, people get so easily away with fast deprecation of goods which have no reason to deprecate at all.
09-15-2009, 04:08 PM   #83
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Leica is a hobby run by hobbyists. It is not profitable. Without a constant stream of external capital from wealthy patrons, it would not exist. Furthermore, if Leica was unable (and this may happen in the future) to reverse engineer its lenses to other mounts, it would have been gone long ago.

Is it any wonder that a camera and lensmaker that makes such durable goods has not been able to sell enough goods to be financially viable. Once you buy your 18mm, you'r done for life, so unless there is a constant stream of new, wealthy buyers who need 18mm lenses, you have put yourself out of business by the excesses of quality at the expense of innovation.

Would you put your "investment" with a company that cannot turn a profit? That's a poor investment in anything, much less a camera platform.

09-15-2009, 04:24 PM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Is it any wonder that a camera and lensmaker that makes such durable goods has not been able to sell enough goods to be financially viable.
Read again. Did you just say "gimme cheap crap because this is what I deserve"?
I cannot believe it. What I said: I cannot understand parts of this world

BTW, Pentax is more durable than most and Leica is preparing to announce profit for 2009.
09-15-2009, 04:40 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Is it any wonder that a camera and lensmaker that makes such durable goods has not been able to sell enough goods to be financially viable. Once you buy your 18mm, you'r done for life, so unless there is a constant stream of new, wealthy buyers who need 18mm lenses, you have put yourself out of business by the excesses of quality at the expense of innovation.
Yes, but there is a constant stream of new wealthy buyers. Plus there are always new lenses for the older users to buy. If Leica makes 2 grand a lens for 10 lenses off each person that should keep them going for pretty well ever I'd think.

There is definitely a market model for well-produced gear you can only sell once. Just be sure you have more than one item in your product catalogue!
09-15-2009, 04:49 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Leica is a hobby run by hobbyists. It is not profitable. Without a constant stream of external capital from wealthy patrons, it would not exist.
Wow, a business not getting a constant stream of external capital from customers would fail?

Hold the presses.
09-15-2009, 06:41 PM   #87
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There appears to be in this thread an assumption that "pro" photographers are journos, press photographers or sports shooters. Those people aren't even on my radar. Don't forget that there are a large number of "fine art" and landscape photographers out there (and a steadily growing number) who want/need full frame, large prints, PP headroom. I don't have the figures but I would imagine there would be a substantial market there.
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