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09-16-2009, 10:05 AM   #31
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Well if the lens is useless to you, then I guess no one will buy it

Well if the lens is useless to you, then I guess no one will buy 7-14mm f4.

K-7 and a m4/3~like pentax & samsung products are comparible, exactly how?

K-7 exists. G1, GH1, GF1 exists.

Anyways, I don't own any 4/3 or m4/3 gear. So its just real specs versus fantasy products comparisions for me.
Nothing official from Pentax, unless you got a pentax link for it and its pictures and the mount they'll use and the lenses made special for it and best of all its "Roadmap".

Anybody seen the 645D yet? When was it first announced, 2003? Where's 645D's new lenses, you know the ones without leaded glass to meet EU standards?

If I want a m4/3 camera I'll pick something available for sale and not wait around for Nikon or Canon or Pentax or Samsung to offer it. Panasonic offers a proven product, not a fantasy.


QuoteOriginally posted by andi Quote
Sorry, but this lens is useless to me - doesn't accept filters. And it's huge which
is a contradiction to m4/3 philosophy being a small system...
It all sounds OK on paper, but I think K-7 and a set of pancakes is a much stronger
small system available now. I compared a K-7 side-by-side with EP1
and it's surprising how similar the size is. EP1 is also very awkward to hold...
K-7 has all the advantages of a serious camera and it's not really that much bigger.
And when you add pancakes to K-7 and stuff like 7-14 to EP1/GF1, the size
advantage switches to K-7


09-16-2009, 10:07 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
showing up fashionably late to a party only works if you're really hot chick (or if everyone else is already drunk). If Pentax is only now "investigating" then by the time it hits the market PanOly will be on 3rd gen versions of theirs. Not a great way to elbow into a market.
So by your analogy, Pentax should just stay at home and run itself a hot bath, read some Grisham novels, eat some ice cream and play with the cats?

Pentax doesn't need to steal the show to make a good camera and make a good profit off of it. I agree with you that they're late (typical of them), but by the same logic Pentax would be wise to avoid full frame cameras, too, as Canon and Nikon are already developing their third generations of those.
09-16-2009, 10:28 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
As much as this all sounds interesting, I think it's nuts.
I think they would be nuts not to do it.
I am 100% certain that all the big ones such as Canon, Nikon and Sony are inking one such system in their drawing board. It is just a matter of when.

QuoteQuote:
2) how many posts/ reviews/ comments etc on the internet do you see demanding smaller cameras with smaller sensors? Vs 24x36 sensor cameras. Sure the people that want and will actually buy a more expensive 24x36 sensor camera are also a limited number but a far greater number than an entirely new mount comact rangefinder camera.
Forum postings are deceiving. The economic reality is that FF sensors camera are still selling in minuscule numbers. In the August monthly sales chart in Japan, the top selling FF camera is the 5D II, and it was at #26 and #30 position, D700 at #56, and A900 at a distant #93 (embarrassingly, did not even make it to their Top 80 chart listing).

By comparison, EP1 is selling at #7 #10 #12 & #17 for their top 4 different lens/body configurations.

Basically, in a few years' time, the K-m market segment would disappear and completely taken over by EVIL cameras. EVIL cameras have lower production cost and should be more economic viable as lower end DSLRs are commoditized.

QuoteQuote:
All this while the APSc owners still want holes in the K mount lens line filled, a better flash unit added, more accesories needed for upper end users and a 24x36 body.
From my point of view, I would say Pentax would be insane to release a 24x36 body judging from the current FF sales figure.

QuoteQuote:
The K-7 is better at the focus thing but APSc will never compete with 24x36 at high ISO's. I've often considered this myself and keep waiting. Someday I won't wait any longer. I can't risk it or afford to.
To be honest, if that's what you desire, there is no point waiting any longer.
09-16-2009, 10:54 AM   #34
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Pentax does one thing well, look at K-7

Pentax does one thing well, look at K-7

The days of them making a 110 system, a 135 system, a 645 system, a 6x7 system are history. Hoya owns Pentax and is in control of their destiny. Hoya has no history making multiple cameras in multiple formats. And with all the layoffs imposed upon Pentax by Hoya buy out Pentax likely has few employees with this history now too. Its a history, likely not to be repeated.


I'll guess Canon and Nikon will not announce their m4/3 concepts like samsung did with NX. One day the rumours with leaked images will hit and 2 to 4 weeks later the product with lenses will launch, lets say for a show like Photokina.


Personally I gave up on Pentax making a full frame and voted with my wallet. Having 5D and D700 inhand now I won't even consider Pentax full frame now unless its much cheaper than current market prices. That of course doesn't mean the other grey haired pentaxians still faithfully waiting and waiting would pass on a Full frame K Mount at any price point.

Life is short, Pentaxians know if they want a full frame platform they may wait a lifetime for Pentax to provide it. Or they shop elsewhere & buy it. Done, just like that.

Anyways Pentax said no full frame and it doesn't exist. Pentax said 645D and it too doesn't exist. Full Frame K I know won't ever happen and the other one is roadmapped so don't shop elsewhere else and wait and wait and hang around and wait some more cause one day it will happen cause the roadmap says so.

Pentax does one thing really well thesedays:

K-7

As far as poor full frame sales percentages, how many full frames does one need? Once you bought one, do you need two? Once you bought two do you need three? Once you bought three, like I have, I really can't see the need for a forth one.

These full frames last a few years so if you add the numbers up over time there are actually many people shooting full frame digital today. And they who own tend to say once you go full frame you don't use your crop format camera or buy another crop format camera again.

Me? I still shoot crop, via pentax K20D. What can I say. I LIKE IT !

But when it comes to brand new gears, I'm done buying new glass to support 1.5x aps-c & I won't buy a K-7 or likely another crop 1.5x crop camera from anyone ever again.



QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
I think they would be nuts not to do it.
I am 100% certain that all the big ones such as Canon, Nikon and Sony are inking one such system in their drawing board. It is just a matter of when.



Forum postings are deceiving. The economic reality is that FF sensors camera are still selling in minuscule numbers. In the August monthly sales chart in Japan, the top selling FF camera is the 5D II, and it was at #26 and #30 position, D700 at #56, and A900 at a distant #93 (embarrassingly, did not even make it to their Top 80 chart listing).

By comparison, EP1 is selling at #7 #10 #12 & #17 for their top 4 different lens/body configurations.

Basically, in a few years' time, the K-m market segment would disappear and completely taken over by EVIL cameras. EVIL cameras have lower production cost and should be more economic viable as lower end DSLRs are commoditized.



From my point of view, I would say Pentax would be insane to release a 24x36 body judging from the current FF sales figure.



To be honest, if that's what you desire, there is no point waiting any longer.



Last edited by Samsungian; 09-16-2009 at 11:02 AM.
09-16-2009, 11:32 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Urkeldaedalus Quote
So by your analogy, Pentax should just stay at home and run itself a hot bath, read some Grisham novels, eat some ice cream and play with the cats?

Pentax doesn't need to steal the show to make a good camera and make a good profit off of it. I agree with you that they're late (typical of them), but by the same logic Pentax would be wise to avoid full frame cameras, too, as Canon and Nikon are already developing their third generations of those.
I argued about a year ago that Pentax should be making a mirror-less camera. And maybe they are.

Pentax is a niche player. Niche players can survive if they do one or two things differently and/or better than the others. As far as I can tell, Pentax has two flags in the sand:

1. small/tough/weather sealed

2. ltd primes

I would look for them to design something that plays to those strengths. What they specifically do could go in a few directions:

1. small/tough FF camera (doubtful to me, but who knows)

2. small/tough APS-C mirrorless w/K-mount (what they should be already working on imho)

3. small/tough u4/3 in partnership with Panny or Oly (doubtful due to corporate cultures but tought times makes for strange bedfellows)

I don't see Pentax building a FF camera for the forseable future - they don't have the glass to support it. I don't see them going u4/3 unless they partner. I could see them ditching their p&s models and building a small/tough APS-C camera to go along with a weather sealed Kx and K7.

I think that Pentax has lost the window to make a play for the "serious" market unless the 645 sees the light of day. They can however continue to occupy a nice niche making small/tough cameras that give a great image.
09-16-2009, 11:34 AM   #36
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QuoteQuote:
As far as poor full frame sales percentages, how many full frames does one need? Once you bought one, do you need two? Once you bought two do you need three? Once you bought three, like I have, I really can't see the need for a forth one.
this statement, seems like a bit of a contradiction to me.
09-16-2009, 11:39 AM   #37
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The only reason you need more than one FF camera is if you shoot for a living and carry two bodies on gigs (which is what you should do) or if you're a gear hound (and that's...OK ). Right now I personally don't see buying another FF body - no need for it. I will get another APS-C camera and maybe a u4/3 as both those will handle and render differently. I've already had times where I didn't want to carry the 5D2 around with me, but gladly would have tossed a GF-1 or X1 or K7/40 combo in my bag.
09-16-2009, 11:57 AM   #38
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Pentax EVIL Camera

If Pentax does produce an EVIL camera I hope that the camera will have an APS-C sensor or for something truly awesome; a FF digital sensor.

I would steer clear of Kodak (one of the creators of the 4/3 format) and the Micro 4/3 sensor. Kodak has a track record of flops, (Disc Film, Film Processing Kiosks, APS film). I know Kodak is producing the sensor for the new Leica M9, but it is a CCD sensor. Kodak shut down its own CMOS development department. Even Stefan Daniel of Leica acknowledged that video and Live View are not possible with the Kodak FF sensor. Panasonic and Olympus are able to achieve both video and Live View with their M 4/3 sensor though. Partnering with Samsung on the NX would be a better idea because the sensor is a CMOS APS-C; a similar sensor to what is in the Pentax K-7.

There was a shoot out/review of the Sigma DP2 versus the Panasonic GH1 with the Olympus M. Zuiko 17mm f/2.8 lens. The Sigma drank Panasonic's milkshake.

The review is here:

Sigma DP2 Shootout Pt. 2 - Detailed Scene

I believe the Sigma clobbered the Panasonic on two fronts. The Sigma features an APS-C sized sensor but it also appears that the Sigma has the better lens.

A Pentax EVIL system would be cool, just not a Micro 4/3 sensor based system.

09-16-2009, 12:04 PM   #39
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Gear Hound ? Me ?

Gear Hound ? Me ?

Guilty as charged

FF #1 5D was for me, FF#2 5D was for proper back up on trips and to lure the wife with a FF she can use on our trips. We share all the eos glass, I carry the heavies in my back pack and she carries 5D #2 and lens & 2 lenses in her back pack. FF#3 is a D700, I never owned a Nikon film camera and I wanted to buy 14-24mm 2.8 due to all the insanely good press on it. So I did buy #3 FF a couple hours before Nikon raised their prices in USA. Nikonrumors site saved me almost $800 so far on that Jan 14th 2009 purchase. No Regrets. But also no reason for me to buy a 2nd D700 unless, well unless it gets insanely cheap before D700 drops off the system, then I'll get another one for a proper back up.

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
The only reason you need more than one FF camera is if you shoot for a living and carry two bodies on gigs (which is what you should do) or if you're a gear hound (and that's...OK ). Right now I personally don't see buying another FF body - no need for it. I will get another APS-C camera and maybe a u4/3 as both those will handle and render differently. I've already had times where I didn't want to carry the 5D2 around with me, but gladly would have tossed a GF-1 or X1 or K7/40 combo in my bag.
09-16-2009, 12:05 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
I don't see Pentax building a FF camera for the forseable future - they don't have the glass to support it.
That is debatable. They are 25 000 000 Pentax FF lenses in existence plus many more third party lenses. The Pentax K-mount is an FF protocol. Pentax will make an FF camera when they find it profitable (why not?).
Pentax doesn't have the lenses for an EVIL camera either. Or for that matter, the coming 645D as most 645 lenses are discontinued....
09-16-2009, 12:19 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
That is debatable. They are 25 000 000 Pentax FF lenses in existence plus many more third party lenses. The Pentax K-mount is an FF protocol. Pentax will make an FF camera when they find it profitable (why not?).
Pentax doesn't have the lenses for an EVIL camera either. Or for that matter, the coming 645D as most 645 lenses are discontinued....
I agree, they have more than enough glass. plus they have a whole plethora of optical formulas to use, its just a matter of putting it into a new body. what do you think canon and nikon use for their FF lenses? yep, the same optical formulas they used in the film days. and Pentax has plenty of these. no shortage of lenses, and no shortage of lens designs. the only struggle they will have is converting to manufacturing both APS-C and FF lenses on a larger scale. shortage of lenses? no. inability to keep up with demand? very likely.
09-16-2009, 12:21 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
That is debatable. They are 25 000 000 Pentax FF lenses in existence plus many more third party lenses. The Pentax K-mount is an FF protocol. Pentax will make an FF camera when they find it profitable (why not?).
Pentax doesn't have the lenses for an EVIL camera either. Or for that matter, the coming 645D as most 645 lenses are discontinued....
Very few people care about legacy Pentax glass. Most customers want to know about what they can buy with that "new car smell."

If Pentax makes and EVIL camera in K mount, they have plenty of current glass. Problem solved. And they have market differentiation as they can trot out "APS-C is better than 4/3 sensor" and they'll have interchangeable lenses unlike the X1.

But that is only if they can get it to market soon. Dollars to donuts Nikon will have an EVIL APS-C camera by the end of 2010 if not sooner.
09-16-2009, 12:54 PM   #43
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Ok Pentax has some 25,000,000 lenses in existence

Ok Pentax has some 25,000,000 lenses in existence, made since what 1964?

So why aren't Pentax selling far more dslrs annually than Olympus does, you know with all this legacy glass "out there"?

I'll bet that when 2009 numbers are published Panasonic will sell more evils than pentax sells dslrs:

unit versus unit totals

and panasonic has no legacy, no 25,000,000 lenses and their owners.

Panasonic m4/3 offer Extreme Lensmount Adaptability and thats the key to their success:

Novoflex brings mount adapters for Micro Four Thirds: Digital Photography Review

As far as an evil type pentax offering you all got to remember is its all about film plane/sensor plane distance. If pentax makes an true evil how would one directly attach a 50-135mm 2.8 SDM to it and get all full functions and still have a 1/2 sized K-7? Pentax evil will be like Samsung evil, in that all new lenses required. And this of course benefits both as they want lens sales too. Profits right?

Panasonic sells its own m4/3 glass, Olympus sells its own 4/3 and m4/3 glass.

The m4/3 Race started last September 2008...







QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
That is debatable. They are 25 000 000 Pentax FF lenses in existence plus many more third party lenses. The Pentax K-mount is an FF protocol. Pentax will make an FF camera when they find it profitable (why not?).
Pentax doesn't have the lenses for an EVIL camera either. Or for that matter, the coming 645D as most 645 lenses are discontinued....
09-16-2009, 12:54 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Angevinn Quote
If Pentax does produce an EVIL camera I hope that the camera will have an APS-C sensor or for something truly awesome; a FF digital sensor.

I would steer clear of Kodak (one of the creators of the 4/3 format) and the Micro 4/3 sensor. Kodak has a track record of flops, (Disc Film, Film Processing Kiosks, APS film). I know Kodak is producing the sensor for the new Leica M9, but it is a CCD sensor. Kodak shut down its own CMOS development department. Even Stefan Daniel of Leica acknowledged that video and Live View are not possible with the Kodak FF sensor. Panasonic and Olympus are able to achieve both video and Live View with their M 4/3 sensor though. Partnering with Samsung on the NX would be a better idea because the sensor is a CMOS APS-C; a similar sensor to what is in the Pentax K-7.

There was a shoot out/review of the Sigma DP2 versus the Panasonic GH1 with the Olympus M. Zuiko 17mm f/2.8 lens. The Sigma drank Panasonic's milkshake.

The review is here:

Sigma DP2 Shootout Pt. 2 - Detailed Scene

I believe the Sigma clobbered the Panasonic on two fronts. The Sigma features an APS-C sized sensor but it also appears that the Sigma has the better lens.

A Pentax EVIL system would be cool, just not a Micro 4/3 sensor based system.
So far, impressed with the Panasonic GH1 in all respects except optics, which are quite frankly poor. Would love to see Pentax show them how to do it.

Now which sensor do you think Pentax would use? Samsung? Probably though I strongly suspect Sony has a customer CMOS sensor waiting in the wings for their own movie mode SLRs.
09-16-2009, 01:02 PM   #45
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QuoteQuote:
Ok Pentax has some 25,000,000 lenses in existence, made since what 1964
no.

I would imagine they don't count the m37 lenses. if they do, it would be since 1952. if they don't, it would be since 1957. if they are only counting Kmount it would be since 1975.

QuoteQuote:
So why aren't Pentax selling far more dslrs annually than Olympus does, you know with all this legacy glass "out there"?
because olympus has better brand recognition, and more advertising.

QuoteQuote:
and panasonic has no legacy, no 25,000,000 lenses and their owners.
they don't need to, they have basically every legacy rangefinder and SLR lens ever made. including the likes of Leica, Zeiss, & Voigtlander. you don't need your own legacy glass with this kind of collection at your disposal wouldn't you say?
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