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10-13-2009, 05:47 AM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by ozlizard Quote
But I still stick to my point that the K7 is still an "upgrade" from the K20 and that Penatx have not yet replaced the K20 with a completely new model.
OK, the K-7 is not a revolution IQ wise but what model is?

D300s vs D300? D200? D100?

7D vs 50D? 40D? 10D?

K-7 vs K20? K10? *istD?

No revolutions either between generations (IMHO) but evolutions with higher fps, better finders, video and so on, and so forth... but look at the IQ differences between a 10D and a 7D or between a K-7 and a *istD: does this constitute what you would call a big enough upgrade? If not then you could argue than the K-7 isn't even a completely new model from the *istD... and you wouldn't be too far off if IQ is your main and only concern!

Or you could say that the K-7 is the replacement fo the *istD and wait a few more years for the K20D replacement... it's cheaper to think this way!

In the end, no one is looking for a revolution in the IQ department from a generation to the other, especially not a year by year revolution: they're just trying to sale cameras!

Let's face it: very few photographers outgrow their camera in less than 5 years and yet, the product renewal rate is more along 1 new camera/1.5 year... who's going to buy them darn' cameras?

10-13-2009, 06:42 AM   #137
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QuoteQuote:
OK, the K-7 is not a revolution IQ wise but what model is?
You forget to mention the FF cameras-5D MK 2, Sony a900/850, they are all in the mix and eventually most, if not all, DSLR's will be FF. Incredible IQ, amazing resolution, files big enough to PP to your hearts content and then print them out on a canvas the size of your wall and still look as sharp as a tack. The market will eventually move to the best whether we want it or not. Led TV's the size of a house, HD TV, solar energy, green cars and yes FF digital cameras. In 10 years time we wont reconize this past.
10-13-2009, 07:18 AM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by ozlizard Quote
You forget to mention the FF cameras-5D MK 2, Sony a900/850, they are all in the mix and eventually most, if not all, DSLR's will be FF. Incredible IQ, amazing resolution, files big enough to PP to your hearts content and then print them out on a canvas the size of your wall and still look as sharp as a tack. The market will eventually move to the best whether we want it or not. Led TV's the size of a house, HD TV, solar energy, green cars and yes FF digital cameras. In 10 years time we wont reconize this past.
I don't buy that! I would predict that all 4 formats will survive (4/3, APS-C, FF, MF) and just as it is today, APS-C will be the dominant format in terms of volume sales.
10-13-2009, 07:55 AM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by ozlizard Quote
You forget to mention the FF cameras-5D MK 2, Sony a900/850, they are all in the mix and eventually most, if not all, DSLR's will be FF. Incredible IQ, amazing resolution, files big enough to PP to your hearts content and then print them out on a canvas the size of your wall and still look as sharp as a tack. The market will eventually move to the best whether we want it or not. Led TV's the size of a house, HD TV, solar energy, green cars and yes FF digital cameras. In 10 years time we wont reconize this past.
Printing them out?

Silly mortal. Try and keep in mind the days of printing out are numbered anyway. The compelling reasons for going to FF are quickly dropping away and becoming a niche of the professional only market. The best selling "camera" of 2009 is going to be a 2 megapixel iPhone, with more iPhones sold than the entire dSLR market.

The market doesn't always trend towards bigger and better. Sometimes it trends toward convenience and popular. The complaint with HDTV and high res cameras still stands: People like to look pretty than they actually are, and all higher resolutions are doing is exposing more flaws. People LIKE the tiny compressed facebook avatars where their skin looks perfect.

10-13-2009, 09:13 AM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by ozlizard Quote
You forget to mention the FF cameras-5D MK 2, Sony a900/850, they are all in the mix and eventually most, if not all, DSLR's will be FF. Incredible IQ, amazing resolution, files big enough to PP to your hearts content and then print them out on a canvas the size of your wall and still look as sharp as a tack. The market will eventually move to the best whether we want it or not. Led TV's the size of a house, HD TV, solar energy, green cars and yes FF digital cameras. In 10 years time we wont reconize this past.
I think you're putting too much hope in FF but that's beside the point I think...

You're basically saying that everything will eventually become bigger and better, and then bigger and better again, and again... until?

Do YOU print your pictures on canvas the size of your wall?

Is the finality of IQ being able to PP to one's heart content?

As good as it is (and I should know, I dropped my Pentax digital to buy one) FF isn't going to replace APS-C anytime soon. Maybe never in fact.

The simple reason why is that APS-C has its merits in its own right and some people just don't want/need FF.

Take one example: Canon were the first to introduce FF. Did it replace their smaller formats (APS-C or APS-H)? No.

Will it in the foreseable future? Just ask sports/wildlife shooters if they would like the 1DMkIV to be FF... and duck for cover!

I probably won't buy another digital Pentax camera if they never introduce FF but it's just me. The vast majority won't care since IQ is more than enough for 98% of the applications you can think of... and they are right.
10-13-2009, 12:33 PM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by MikePerham Quote
I don't buy that! I would predict that all 4 formats will survive (4/3, APS-C, FF, MF) and just as it is today, APS-C will be the dominant format in terms of volume sales.
There's also plenty of room between the miniscule formats of even the best compacts (LX3, G11) and the rather large 4/3 format. Somewhere there might be a sweet spot for a really small systems camera. But - wrong thread ;-)
10-13-2009, 12:54 PM   #142
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What else? Someone close to Pentax France let me understand that a new firmware for K-7 should be released soon after the end of the "Salon de la photo" in Paris.
10-13-2009, 01:25 PM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mister Guy Quote
Printing them out?

Silly mortal. Try and keep in mind the days of printing out are numbered anyway. The compelling reasons for going to FF are quickly dropping away and becoming a niche of the professional only market. The best selling "camera" of 2009 is going to be a 2 megapixel iPhone, with more iPhones sold than the entire dSLR market.

The market doesn't always trend towards bigger and better. Sometimes it trends toward convenience and popular. The complaint with HDTV and high res cameras still stands: People like to look pretty than they actually are, and all higher resolutions are doing is exposing more flaws. People LIKE the tiny compressed facebook avatars where their skin looks perfect.
You're right...and wrong. Convenience does win, but so does resolution - eventually. Once you go HD, you can't really go back. And consumers are finding that. The reasons for FF aren't dropping away. APS-C is getting better, but so is FF. There will always be stratification, and the reasons for different sensor sizes won't go away, but they likely will morph.

Does anyone need 25mp? Yes, some do. And not just to print posters. There will be tricks you can play with the large files enabling other technologies. Just because you collect 25mp at the sensor doesn't necessarily mean that you'll use all of them in the display. As various recognition algorithms get better, you'll be able to extract metadata from photos and do some interesting things. And that will always work better with higher quality data. And then it'll trickle down to the other levels.

Most standards aren't standards because they are best. Many happen for rather silly or arcane reasons.

10-13-2009, 04:55 PM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mister Guy Quote
Printing them out?

Silly mortal. Try and keep in mind the days of printing out are numbered anyway. The compelling reasons for going to FF are quickly dropping away and becoming a niche of the professional only market. The best selling "camera" of 2009 is going to be a 2 megapixel iPhone, with more iPhones sold than the entire dSLR market.

The market doesn't always trend towards bigger and better. Sometimes it trends toward convenience and popular. The complaint with HDTV and high res cameras still stands: People like to look pretty than they actually are, and all higher resolutions are doing is exposing more flaws. People LIKE the tiny compressed facebook avatars where their skin looks perfect.
Printing? Never count out the marketing power of nostalgia. It will never dominate, but it will persist (thankfully).

FF dominant? Gotta get the form factor much, much smaller. And not if the sensor costs more than a smaller "good enough" APS-C.

I care about "prints as large as a wall". Because our walls will display our prints. I seen it on a show.
10-13-2009, 07:00 PM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Printing? Never count out the marketing power of nostalgia. It will never dominate, but it will persist (thankfully).

FF dominant? Gotta get the form factor much, much smaller. And not if the sensor costs more than a smaller "good enough" APS-C.

I care about "prints as large as a wall". Because our walls will display our prints. I seen it on a show.
Yeah but surely you don't think they'll be still pictures do you?
10-13-2009, 08:53 PM   #146
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Ok I may have slightly overstated my case to make a point. So, although it may be true that printing photos will fall by the wayside for the general public in favour of electronic storage and display, people will always want to hang pretty things on their walls. Photos as fine art will always have a place, in fact with the current proliferation of "pro" photographers I would say that market could be increasing (from the perspective of my geographical location, can't say for elswhere). The best tech nearly always (sometimes slowly) moves from the top of the range to the standard range. Look at the features we now have on cameras, tv's and cars, to name just a few....you don't have to go back very far to a time when what we have now would have been considered luxury, top of the range goods. In respect of DSLR's a few years back my K20 would have been considered a pro spec camera and would have cost 10 times as much. Do you really think this trend is going to stop? If FF is the best and more manufactures introduce FF (an assumption I know) then more will follow and FF DSLR's will be the norm. There will still be other formats I am sure, including aps-c, and camera phones etc, as convergence continues. But as the price point of current and future FF cameras falls people will buy them. Who wouldnt want a Canon 5D or Sony a900?
10-14-2009, 01:16 AM   #147
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I donīt care about a new body now-Lenses!!!

I want some new lenses!!!
fast, sealed and SDM, something with 30 and 1.4, something with 17-70 and f4.
10-14-2009, 05:13 AM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by janneman Quote
I want some new lenses!!!
fast, sealed and SDM, something with 30 and 1.4, something with 17-70 and f4.
Oh, another one of these requests...

Get the 55/1.4 - it's sealed and SDM.
Otherwise forget the sealing and get the Sigma 30/1.4
Or even forget SDM and get a 31 ltd.

The DA 17-70 is an f/4 and is also SDM...
I know there's lots to wish for; it'll take some time to come through - let it be known to Pentax and you'll probably find they'll listen...
10-14-2009, 05:34 AM   #149
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DA*30/1.4 SDM is what we want.
10-14-2009, 06:14 AM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Oh, another one of these requests...

Get the 55/1.4 - it's sealed and SDM.
Got it... usefull but too long/narrow for my ideal use
QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Otherwise forget the sealing and get the Sigma 30/1.4
I'm one of those who want sealing, if not I'd have had the sigma by now
QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Or even forget SDM and get a 31 ltd.
Got that one as well (therefore no need for the sigma) but again it is not sealed.
(But that is why I know I like the 30mm range!)
QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
The DA 17-70 is an f/4 and is also SDM...
OKay I admit, not as high on my wish list as the 30mm.
But I'd like something sealed with a bit more range than the 16-50
QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
I know there's lots to wish for; it'll take some time to come through - let it be known to Pentax and you'll probably find they'll listen...
I've been letting it known that I want it ever since the K10D came and guess what happened, they took it off the roadmaps...

I want it in my hands at carnaval next year
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