anything else coming in 2009?

creampuff · 10-01-2009, 06:11 AM

Originally posted by ogl

K-x is castrate, there is a chasm between K-7 and K-x.

If Hoya thinks that the camera higher than K-x could damage K-7's sales, it means ONLY ONE -
the position of company at DSLR market is very weak and company is technologically weaker than competitors.

All other brands offer MORE than 2 cameras and have no any problems.

I'm sorry to say this so-called analysis is utter rubbish.
What the K-x offers is an entry level camera with video capability at an attractive price point. Video rather than weather sealing, a good spec and price is what the market is interested in.
Please produce proof to back up your claim that "the company is weak and technologically weaker than its competitors"

ogl · 10-01-2009, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by creampuff

I'm sorry to say this so-called analysis is utter rubbish.
What the K-x offers is an entry level camera with video capability at an attractive price point. Video rather than weather sealing, a good spec and price is what the market is interested in.
Please produce proof to back up your claim that "the company is weak and technologically weaker than its competitors"

Video, video, video...It's funny. It's not the holy cow.
Marketing presses VIDEO in DSLR on customers.

DLSR is photo camera, not video. Video rather than AF indicators, top LCD and WR MEANS marketing.
I don't care about video without AF.
I'm not cameraman or fan of video. I have video-camera to make video.

OK. Have a look at E-620 - SR, better kit lens, more features than K-x. 700 USD kit.
I say ABOUT photo's features.

Pentax is the last who put 12 MP sensor in low-end camera.

D3000 VR kit - 600 USD
D5000 VR kit - 850 USD
D90 - 830 USD (body)
Canon 500D IS kit - 800 USD
Canon 450D IS kit - 627 USD
K-x kit - 650 USD

Is it cheap?
Yes.
Can K-x offer something unique?
No.

I saw all features in cameras of competitors before.

Fototim · 10-01-2009, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by stanleyk

I think you could be right. In a new economy where constant access to more and more credit is not going to be possible, I'm not sure the smartest strategy is to offer so many variations. Perhaps Pentax is getting it right this time by offering 3 bodies.

Having so many different bodies is probably very difficult for inventory control. In this respect it's very similar to what American car manufacturers are going through. How many variations on an SUV did they offer?
...
...

Inventory and R&D costs are two factors. A third is marketing. It is more expensive to market a four body line, than a two body line.

One more thing to consider:
It is a lot easier to make the final decision when the options are limited. I've been in an unsuccessful sales man myself. One of the things I did learn was to make the decision as simple as possible for the customer. A simple decision process often makes more profit.
This is one of the reasons why most photo stores only has two systems. More system options tend to confuse the customer, but that'sanother debate.

Customers say they likes many options, but I'd say they are plain wrong (tongue in cheek).

In short. Production decisions are perhaps harder to make, than it seems a first glance.

ecoronin · 10-01-2009, 08:00 AM

I think pentax should focus on more telephoto lenses. and a micro. They have enough cameras, they need to work on a solid set of lenses to compement K7 and K-x

Boris · 10-01-2009, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by ogl

K-x is castrate, there is a chasm between K-7 and K-x.

If Hoya thinks that the camera higher than K-x could damage K-7's sales, it means ONLY ONE -
the position of company at DSLR market is very weak and company is technologically weaker than competitors.

All other brands offer MORE than 2 cameras and have no any problems.

What you say is logical. Notice, I am not saying that it is true or not, merely that it is logical. However, logic would dictate then that you stop using Pentax and switch to a brand that is both stronger from market perspective and stronger technologically. If, however, you opt to stay with Pentax, the logic of your analysis breaks up.

stanleyk · 10-01-2009, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by Fototim

Inventory and R&D costs are two factors. A third is marketing. It is more expensive to market a four body line, than a two body line.

One more thing to consider:
It is a lot easier to make the final decision when the options are limited. I've been in an unsuccessful sales man myself. One of the things I did learn was to make the decision as simple as possible for the customer. A simple decision process often makes more profit.
This is one of the reasons why most photo stores only has two systems. More system options tend to confuse the customer, but that'sanother debate.

Customers say they likes many options, but I'd say they are plain wrong (tongue in cheek).

In short. Production decisions are perhaps harder to make, than it seems a first glance.

Exactly. I actually think Pentax is well positioned. I don't think they will ever sell as many cameras as Cannon or Nikon, but I'm not sure that's the most important thing. I think Pentax has a very loyal customer base of people who like to do photography.

I found this commentary exchange from the On Line Photographer illuminating (from a person who sold his Nikon gear and it's an interesting read as to why):

"Most important I take my camera everywhere..."

Thank you for the comment Jeroen. As I said in the review, the K-7 isn't for everyone, but for those who "get it" (and you clearly do), it's a delight.

Posted by: Gordon Lewis | Wednesday, 30 September 2009 at 05:14 PM

Eruditass · 10-01-2009, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by ogl

Video, video, video...It's funny. It's not the holy cow.
Marketing presses VIDEO in DSLR on customers.

DLSR is photo camera, not video. Video rather than AF indicators, top LCD and WR MEANS marketing.
I don't care about video without AF.
I'm not cameraman or fan of video. I have video-camera to make video.

OK. Have a look at E-620 - SR, better kit lens, more features than K-x. 700 USD kit.
I say ABOUT photo's features.

Pentax is the last who put 12 MP sensor in low-end camera.

D3000 VR kit - 600 USD
D5000 VR kit - 850 USD
D90 - 830 USD (body)
Canon 500D IS kit - 800 USD
Canon 450D IS kit - 627 USD
K-x kit - 650 USD

Is it cheap?
Yes.
Can K-x offer something unique?
No.

I saw all features in cameras of competitors before.

I like olympus a lot and almost went with them, but the CF (a plus for some) and smaller sensor put it out of the running for me. Just to satisfy my curiosity, what features does the e-620 have over the K-x? I know it has the articulating screen (nice) and of course those LED's (don't care)

elho_cid · 10-01-2009, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by ogl

Is it cheap?
Yes.
Can K-x offer something unique?
No.

I saw all features in cameras of competitors before.

Yes they offer something unique. The colors, the AA battery source... And of course you saw some advanced features of K-x in competitors cameras before. But usually in higher priced cameras. It can be said about any entry level camera - nothing new, just last years technology in smaller, cheaper package.
The E-620 you mentioned is almost as the K200D used to be. A cheap photographers camera. But photographers are more likely to be happy with a used K10D or K20D from ebay than a K200D successor.
A new camera proposition needs to shine with features - even if the features are just cheap gimmicks like LV, video or digital filters.

Ratmagiclady · 10-01-2009, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by elho_cid

Yes they offer something unique. The colors, the AA battery source... And of course you saw some advanced features of K-x in competitors cameras before. But usually in higher priced cameras. It can be said about any entry level camera - nothing new, just last years technology in smaller, cheaper package.
The E-620 you mentioned is almost as the K200D used to be. A cheap photographers camera. But photographers are more likely to be happy with a used K10D or K20D from ebay than a K200D successor.
A new camera proposition needs to shine with features - even if the features are just cheap gimmicks like LV, video or digital filters.

Pretty much. As long as there's K20d's to be had, there they are.

The 'entry level' market is just all about pushing video.

The colors are cute, though not exactly something that says 'Serious.'

But if they're gonna be there, why not have lots.

I really wasn't expecting Pentax to come out with an entry level video. But there it is.

What happens to the mid range, I dunno. If they keep bumping the K20d/K-7 type range down in price, whenever a successor comes out, rather than trying to build a brand-new compromise every year or two, though, I can live with that.

**Aristophanes** · 10-01-2009, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by LeDave

There are room in pricing, but no room in camera specs, if you look at it the K-7 and K-x are very close together, only that the K-7 has weather sealing and top LCD. I feel like anything a bit higher than the K-x will damage K-7's sales if the price goes between them.

Or it will make the brand more popular with more options at a variety of price points, including the extremely profitable US$750-$1,000 range where Pentax has nothing right now that compares to the competition.

It's a very real weakness in the product offering.

**Aristophanes** · 10-01-2009, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by creampuff

I'm sorry to say this so-called analysis is utter rubbish.
What the K-x offers is an entry level camera with video capability at an attractive price point. Video rather than weather sealing, a good spec and price is what the market is interested in.

Are you speaking for " the market" authoritatively?

Because the hottest sellers with by far the most margins come in the fat middle (read Toyota market data about the Camry), where Pentax has nothing.

K-x = Best-featured (for now) "entry-level".
K-7 = Amazing value for the semi-pro.

Nothing in between. K-7 is too $$$ for a buy-up, K-x is lacking features, especially core usability ones found in competitor models.

Other brands (Canikon, Sony, Oly) have 5-6 models. Pentax 2. It is a 3 model DSLR market. That is what is needed to re-capture lost market share. M4/3 is gaining traction and will strongly challenge cams like the K-x because there is a worthwhile "buy-up" motivation in the smaller form factor.

ogl · 10-01-2009, 09:34 PM

I liked the choice from Pentax last year and the beggining of 2009:
K20D, K200D, K-m.

The choice of 2009 is rather unclear for me.

ogl · 10-01-2009, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by Eruditass

Just to satisfy my curiosity, what features does the e-620 have over the K-x? I know it has the articulating screen (nice) and of course those LED's (don't care)

And...
AF calibration for all focal length (included zooms) and for all AF points.

Olympus also has better AF than Pentax. E-620 has battery grip. Better kit lens. Better IS.

thibs · 10-02-2009, 02:22 AM

Originally posted by ogl

And...
AF calibration for all focal length (included zooms) and for all AF points.

Olympus also has better AF than Pentax. E-620 has battery grip. Better kit lens. Better IS.

AF? Except the callibration, prove it.
Kit lens? Mmm again.
Bette IS? Prove it.

hopey · 10-02-2009, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Olympus also has better AF than Pentax

That's funny. Do you know how many people comes to me thinking their new Olympus is defective because of the AF system? With low light it begins firing the onboard flash like crazy trying to focus sometimes even up to ten seconds. And in a high percertage of those times it never locks focus. It's terrible.

That has never happened with a Pentax, even with the old models.

10-01-2009, 07:33 AM	#93
Fototim Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Norway Posts: 268	Originally posted by stanleyk I think you could be right. In a new economy where constant access to more and more credit is not going to be possible, I'm not sure the smartest strategy is to offer so many variations. Perhaps Pentax is getting it right this time by offering 3 bodies. Having so many different bodies is probably very difficult for inventory control. In this respect it's very similar to what American car manufacturers are going through. How many variations on an SUV did they offer? ... ... Inventory and R&D costs are two factors. A third is marketing. It is more expensive to market a four body line, than a two body line. One more thing to consider: It is a lot easier to make the final decision when the options are limited. I've been in an unsuccessful sales man myself. One of the things I did learn was to make the decision as simple as possible for the customer. A simple decision process often makes more profit. This is one of the reasons why most photo stores only has two systems. More system options tend to confuse the customer, but that'sanother debate. Customers say they likes many options, but I'd say they are plain wrong (tongue in cheek). In short. Production decisions are perhaps harder to make, than it seems a first glance. Last edited by Fototim; 10-01-2009 at 07:42 AM.

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10-01-2009, 06:11 AM	#91
creampuff Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,953	Originally posted by ogl K-x is castrate, there is a chasm between K-7 and K-x. If Hoya thinks that the camera higher than K-x could damage K-7's sales, it means ONLY ONE - the position of company at DSLR market is very weak and company is technologically weaker than competitors. All other brands offer MORE than 2 cameras and have no any problems. I'm sorry to say this so-called analysis is utter rubbish. What the K-x offers is an entry level camera with video capability at an attractive price point. Video rather than weather sealing, a good spec and price is what the market is interested in. Please produce proof to back up your claim that "the company is weak and technologically weaker than its competitors"

10-01-2009, 06:45 AM	#92
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by creampuff I'm sorry to say this so-called analysis is utter rubbish. What the K-x offers is an entry level camera with video capability at an attractive price point. Video rather than weather sealing, a good spec and price is what the market is interested in. Please produce proof to back up your claim that "the company is weak and technologically weaker than its competitors" Video, video, video...It's funny. It's not the holy cow. Marketing presses VIDEO in DSLR on customers. DLSR is photo camera, not video. Video rather than AF indicators, top LCD and WR MEANS marketing. I don't care about video without AF. I'm not cameraman or fan of video. I have video-camera to make video. OK. Have a look at E-620 - SR, better kit lens, more features than K-x. 700 USD kit. I say ABOUT photo's features. Pentax is the last who put 12 MP sensor in low-end camera. D3000 VR kit - 600 USD D5000 VR kit - 850 USD D90 - 830 USD (body) Canon 500D IS kit - 800 USD Canon 450D IS kit - 627 USD K-x kit - 650 USD Is it cheap? Yes. Can K-x offer something unique? No. I saw all features in cameras of competitors before.

10-01-2009, 08:00 AM	#94
ecoronin Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 127	I think pentax should focus on more telephoto lenses. and a micro. They have enough cameras, they need to work on a solid set of lenses to compement K7 and K-x

10-01-2009, 08:07 AM	#95
Boris Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Israel Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 932	Originally posted by ogl K-x is castrate, there is a chasm between K-7 and K-x. If Hoya thinks that the camera higher than K-x could damage K-7's sales, it means ONLY ONE - the position of company at DSLR market is very weak and company is technologically weaker than competitors. All other brands offer MORE than 2 cameras and have no any problems. What you say is logical. Notice, I am not saying that it is true or not, merely that it is logical. However, logic would dictate then that you stop using Pentax and switch to a brand that is both stronger from market perspective and stronger technologically. If, however, you opt to stay with Pentax, the logic of your analysis breaks up.

10-01-2009, 08:18 AM	#96
stanleyk Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Taylor, Texas Posts: 1,018	Originally posted by Fototim Inventory and R&D costs are two factors. A third is marketing. It is more expensive to market a four body line, than a two body line. One more thing to consider: It is a lot easier to make the final decision when the options are limited. I've been in an unsuccessful sales man myself. One of the things I did learn was to make the decision as simple as possible for the customer. A simple decision process often makes more profit. This is one of the reasons why most photo stores only has two systems. More system options tend to confuse the customer, but that'sanother debate. Customers say they likes many options, but I'd say they are plain wrong (tongue in cheek). In short. Production decisions are perhaps harder to make, than it seems a first glance. Exactly. I actually think Pentax is well positioned. I don't think they will ever sell as many cameras as Cannon or Nikon, but I'm not sure that's the most important thing. I think Pentax has a very loyal customer base of people who like to do photography. I found this commentary exchange from the On Line Photographer illuminating (from a person who sold his Nikon gear and it's an interesting read as to why): "Most important I take my camera everywhere..." Thank you for the comment Jeroen. As I said in the review, the K-7 isn't for everyone, but for those who "get it" (and you clearly do), it's a delight. Posted by: Gordon Lewis \| Wednesday, 30 September 2009 at 05:14 PM

10-01-2009, 12:04 PM	#97
Eruditass Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,207	Originally posted by ogl Video, video, video...It's funny. It's not the holy cow. Marketing presses VIDEO in DSLR on customers. DLSR is photo camera, not video. Video rather than AF indicators, top LCD and WR MEANS marketing. I don't care about video without AF. I'm not cameraman or fan of video. I have video-camera to make video. OK. Have a look at E-620 - SR, better kit lens, more features than K-x. 700 USD kit. I say ABOUT photo's features. Pentax is the last who put 12 MP sensor in low-end camera. D3000 VR kit - 600 USD D5000 VR kit - 850 USD D90 - 830 USD (body) Canon 500D IS kit - 800 USD Canon 450D IS kit - 627 USD K-x kit - 650 USD Is it cheap? Yes. Can K-x offer something unique? No. I saw all features in cameras of competitors before. I like olympus a lot and almost went with them, but the CF (a plus for some) and smaller sensor put it out of the running for me. Just to satisfy my curiosity, what features does the e-620 have over the K-x? I know it has the articulating screen (nice) and of course those LED's (don't care)

10-01-2009, 02:15 PM	#98
elho_cid Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Prague Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,199	Originally posted by ogl Is it cheap? Yes. Can K-x offer something unique? No. I saw all features in cameras of competitors before. Yes they offer something unique. The colors, the AA battery source... And of course you saw some advanced features of K-x in competitors cameras before. But usually in higher priced cameras. It can be said about any entry level camera - nothing new, just last years technology in smaller, cheaper package. The E-620 you mentioned is almost as the K200D used to be. A cheap photographers camera. But photographers are more likely to be happy with a used K10D or K20D from ebay than a K200D successor. A new camera proposition needs to shine with features - even if the features are just cheap gimmicks like LV, video or digital filters.

10-01-2009, 03:27 PM	#99
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563	Originally posted by elho_cid Yes they offer something unique. The colors, the AA battery source... And of course you saw some advanced features of K-x in competitors cameras before. But usually in higher priced cameras. It can be said about any entry level camera - nothing new, just last years technology in smaller, cheaper package. The E-620 you mentioned is almost as the K200D used to be. A cheap photographers camera. But photographers are more likely to be happy with a used K10D or K20D from ebay than a K200D successor. A new camera proposition needs to shine with features - even if the features are just cheap gimmicks like LV, video or digital filters. Pretty much. As long as there's K20d's to be had, there they are. The 'entry level' market is just all about pushing video. The colors are cute, though not exactly something that says 'Serious.' But if they're gonna be there, why not have lots. I really wasn't expecting Pentax to come out with an entry level video. But there it is. What happens to the mid range, I dunno. If they keep bumping the K20d/K-7 type range down in price, whenever a successor comes out, rather than trying to build a brand-new compromise every year or two, though, I can live with that.

10-01-2009, 06:02 PM	#100
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by LeDave There are room in pricing, but no room in camera specs, if you look at it the K-7 and K-x are very close together, only that the K-7 has weather sealing and top LCD. I feel like anything a bit higher than the K-x will damage K-7's sales if the price goes between them. Or it will make the brand more popular with more options at a variety of price points, including the extremely profitable US$750-$1,000 range where Pentax has nothing right now that compares to the competition. It's a very real weakness in the product offering.

10-01-2009, 06:09 PM	#101
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by creampuff I'm sorry to say this so-called analysis is utter rubbish. What the K-x offers is an entry level camera with video capability at an attractive price point. Video rather than weather sealing, a good spec and price is what the market is interested in. Are you speaking for " the market" authoritatively? Because the hottest sellers with by far the most margins come in the fat middle (read Toyota market data about the Camry), where Pentax has nothing. K-x = Best-featured (for now) "entry-level". K-7 = Amazing value for the semi-pro. Nothing in between. K-7 is too $$$ for a buy-up, K-x is lacking features, especially core usability ones found in competitor models. Other brands (Canikon, Sony, Oly) have 5-6 models. Pentax 2. It is a 3 model DSLR market. That is what is needed to re-capture lost market share. M4/3 is gaining traction and will strongly challenge cams like the K-x because there is a worthwhile "buy-up" motivation in the smaller form factor.

10-01-2009, 09:34 PM	#102
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	I liked the choice from Pentax last year and the beggining of 2009: K20D, K200D, K-m. The choice of 2009 is rather unclear for me.

10-01-2009, 09:38 PM	#103
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by Eruditass Just to satisfy my curiosity, what features does the e-620 have over the K-x? I know it has the articulating screen (nice) and of course those LED's (don't care) And... AF calibration for all focal length (included zooms) and for all AF points. Olympus also has better AF than Pentax. E-620 has battery grip. Better kit lens. Better IS.

10-02-2009, 02:22 AM	#104
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by ogl And... AF calibration for all focal length (included zooms) and for all AF points. Olympus also has better AF than Pentax. E-620 has battery grip. Better kit lens. Better IS. AF? Except the callibration, prove it. Kit lens? Mmm again. Bette IS? Prove it.

10-02-2009, 04:54 AM	#105
hopey Inactive Account Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Bizkaia, Basque Country Posts: 39	Quote: Olympus also has better AF than Pentax That's funny. Do you know how many people comes to me thinking their new Olympus is defective because of the AF system? With low light it begins firing the onboard flash like crazy trying to focus sometimes even up to ten seconds. And in a high percertage of those times it never locks focus. It's terrible. That has never happened with a Pentax, even with the old models.