Confirmation from Pentax: K-x is K-m/K2000 replacement

kevinschoenmakers · 09-22-2009, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by cyg

It seems odd to think that Pentax would be the only major dslr manufacturer to be incapable or unwilling to market more than two models at the same time. (Although Sony may be stretching the segmentation to something ridiculous)

There is plenty of room both price-wise and feature-wise for at least one intermediate model.

Not to mention a model below the K-x.

ogl · 09-22-2009, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by gazonk

Well, they haven't discontinued the K-m yet, so there are still 3 cameras... but I agree with you that the price gap is huge.

My guess: Pentax will/need to do one of the following:

1) introduce a camera somewhere in between K-x and K-7 (with feature set more similar to K200D, e.g. AF confirmation, weather sealings and top LCD). If this makes the K-7 look less attractive, they may also introduce a "face lift" of the K-7.

2) OR - and this might be more probable: They've got an even better camera than the K-7 ready for some time next year. Probably still APS-C, but with even better features than the K-7. Then they could make K-7 the medium featured camera.

K-m is discontinued from May-June, 2009. It's official information from official dealer Pentax in Russia. They had got the last consignment with K-m on June from Pentax Europe.

RMabo · 09-22-2009, 09:46 AM

Yes, the K-m is discontinued. The last ones was made this spring. So it is no longer in production and when stock is out it can't be ordered any more. Pentax Japan still has some left and that is why it is still on their homepage. But it is no longer being produced, only a few in old stock exist.

It is quite funny to read this thread. You know, back in the *ist D, DS and DL-days, Pentax was often criticized for having too many models that were too similar and the customers got confused. So Pentax has tried to avoid that with their new serie, to create bodies with more differencies and bigger gap between them.

And now some are criticising Pentax for having clearly defined cameras with big differencies between them. hahaha.

RawheaD · 09-22-2009, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by ogl

The confusion are only 2 cameras from Pentax.
K-7 - $1250
K-x -$650.

Olympus, Sony, Canon and Nikon offer big choice for the customers and nobody are in confusion.
Hoya is not smaller than Nikon, for example.

Of course there is confusion. Show a noob the Canon lineup and ask him/her which one he wants. Even after you explain all the differences between the various models, you'd still be lucky if the person can make up her mind based on the feature set. At the end of the day, they are likely to choose one model that most closely fits their budget (or, as often is the case, the one model immediately above it).

To me, that's a stupid way to purchase a camera.

Will the current Pentax lineup be able to satisfy everyone? Most likely not. That's not the point. When you ask the question "should Pentax introduce an intermediate model between the K-x and K-7", you can't base your answer solely on whether such a model would attract more customers (which it certainly will), but also whether or not the number of new customers you will attract would be worth the R&D as well as Marketing, for this new model. If the answer is No or only Maybe, then it may actually be beneficial to keep away from that segment.

You should also remember that most customers, except for the first-time DSLR shooters (who will go for the K-x), are repeat customers, so an intermediate model will definitely cannibalize K-7 sales, perhaps resulting in an impact large enough to neutralize profits.

Also, I'm talking about market share, not company size. Hoya being a big company has got nothing to do with it.

Think MP3 players by Apple and Microsoft. MS is a much much bigger company. Does that mean MS should put out as many different models of their Zune players as Apple has iPod models? The answer is no, because the Zune market share is miniscule. Same principle.

Now, of course, I may be totally wrong and we may see a K300D later this year, at which point I will concede to you all, but as it stands, I just don't see it coming, and I actually believe it's a GOOD thing for Pentax to stay focused on the two models (plus the 645D, of course :-)

TomE · 09-22-2009, 01:47 PM

How does any new buyer know what Pentax is selling since here in the USA they have NO presence in camera stores?

They could have 10 new cameras and no one would know it other than people on forums like this.

Tom

builttospill · 09-22-2009, 01:55 PM

Good point.

Originally posted by ennacac

How does any new buyer know what Pentax is selling since here in the USA they have NO presence in camera stores?

They could have 10 new cameras and no one would know it other than people on forums like this.

Tom

RawheaD · 09-22-2009, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by ennacac

How does any new buyer know what Pentax is selling since here in the USA they have NO presence in camera stores?

They could have 10 new cameras and no one would know it other than people on forums like this.

Tom

All the more reason why Pentax would want to keep their lineup *clean* and *simple*. You don't want to get into how many AF points there are in this intermediate model, or whether or not there's AF confirmation in that intermediate model with a potential newcomer; you want something inyerface, bold, and to-the-point. In this sense, the K-m/K-x is fantastic.

There are so many reasons why it makes sense for Pentax to stick with a two-tiered lineup, while there is only one reason why they should introduce an "intermediate" model––to satisfy the thrifty camera nerds that hang out in forums like this :-P

kevinschoenmakers · 09-23-2009, 01:54 AM

I remain convinced there is enough 'space' left for a non-LV/non-Video camera somewhere in Pentax's line-up, whether above or below. There's quite a big gap between the bottom of dSLR prices - 300$ - and the K-x's 650$. And between the price of the K-x and the K-7.

creampuff · 09-23-2009, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by kevinschoenmakers

I remain convinced there is enough 'space' left for a non-LV/non-Video camera somewhere in Pentax's line-up, whether above or below. There's quite a big gap between the bottom of dSLR prices - 300$ - and the K-x's 650$. And between the price of the K-x and the K-7.

A No Live View/ non-video model is imo a non-starter at the current state of the market. It would be dead in the water sales wise simply because every other competing model now sports this feature.

walro · 09-23-2009, 04:07 AM

Originally posted by creampuff

A No Live View/ non-video model is imo a non-starter at the current state of the market. It would be dead in the water sales wise simply because every other competing model now sports this feature.

I have to agree. The issue is more LIve View, than video. This is the first thing that people moving from point and shoots to SLRs look for. They are used to taking photos in a certain way and if everyone else offers Live View and Pentax doesn't, than they will gravitate to other brands.

RaduA · 09-23-2009, 05:09 AM

I think I understand now what Hoya wants to do with the APS-C line of cameras. IMO getting out now a camera in between K-x and K-7 will be bad for them, stretching their production capabilities and even worse the ability to make gains in 2010. Also making a camera with modest performances to protect the K-7 will make it vulnerable to the canikon midrange units such as D90s successor.

Pentax said they want to make 20K K-7 and 28K K-x per month. The combined 48K units per month would add up to 576K units per year which is a lot more than Pentax made in any year (dslr age of course). So there is no room for a third model and they can adjust between the 2 current models production figures according to the market demand. What I see happening is:

- they will put on the market in q2/2010 the intermediate model which will probably inherit a lot of K-7 internals (with the possible exception of the sensor). A new plastic body will come with rounded lines and probably smaller on top because most likely the prism will be a .95x.95. Of course w.s. and maybe with a flip LCD on back. Same AF system as K-7, same exposure system, same video capabilities, same shutter and most likely very close fps. Will use the same grip as K-7 because only the top will be different and the same battery (and the ability of using AAs in the grip).
But what about the sensor? Pentax now buys in pretty large quantities sensors from both Sony and Samsung so it is no stretch of imagination that they could chose the right offer and push one or another company to bid against each other but not only financially but also technologically so the one that can deliver the best sensor for the future flag ship camera after K-7 to take also the order for the mid range model!. Remember a future Pentax capable of making 600-750K units per year is no "third world customer" to any sensor making company IMO.

- they will slowly retire the K-7 after that and announce @ Photokina 2010 the successor of the K-7 in the form of a camera comparable with D300s and 7D in terms of fps, new sensor, new AF system, 1080p video with advanced features and maybe a 1x1 pentaprism in the same small magnesium body of the k-7.

So, I see in 2010 a true 3 camera line-up in the APS-C line with 645D above it as a prestigious flag ship.

Radu

Ratmagiclady · 09-23-2009, 05:48 AM

Seems to me that Pentax is now in a position to keep letting the K-7/k20d type level of camera of last year or the year before just drop in price until the stock runs out, to cover the mid-range, or 'thrifty enthusiasts' as some called us. ) Kind of how I got my K20d, that, and I ain't crying.

But one thing that makes me skeptical about the two-body line only is my surprise that the K-x didn't get weathersealing, and it seemed Pentax was really planning on having that be a defining feature of the brand. It's a feature everyone can understand, after all, and there's that whole outdoorsey angle.

68deluxe · 09-23-2009, 06:04 AM

in a way I think it's great the way pentax have their line-up. It's well defined and easy to identify the purpose of each camera.

I honestly think the way Canon market their cameras is to trick the purchaser by luring them up to the next level, ie for $200 more you get x, y and z! Canon have instantly increased profits, and the purchaser has spent more than they wanted, and probably have features they don't want/need.

at least with pentax, if your budget is $700, there is no "oh I'll just spend a little more and get this..."

$0.02

RMabo · 09-23-2009, 06:47 AM

It may be room in the lineup for a model without live-view and without video, the big question is - would it sell well enough to make Pentax profitable? The big thing in DSLR's now are live-view and video. Everyone is talking about them, the customers ask for those functions when they buys a new camera. Not so much old users of DSLR's that simply wants a new camera, but newcomers to DSLR's wants live-view and video, because they are used to those functions in their p&s digicams. When even the simplest p&s digicam has live-view and video, it is a challenge for the salespersonell to explain why a more expensive, more technically advanced and dearer DSLR doesn't have video.

ogl · 09-23-2009, 07:55 AM

I feel that K-x attracts only with 100 colors. The discussions about K-x calm down very quickly.
USA presentation was like home party. K-x is not in top 20 at dpreview.com.
Even K-m was more interesting for the customers.
It's pity...

Hoya want to attract the begginers, but the users of DS/K100D/k200D are not offered by new cameras...
In Japan GF1, D5000 and EP-1 will press K-x. No doubts.
Only colours K-x will help for some time in Japan...And then?

09-23-2009, 07:55 AM	#45
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	I feel that K-x attracts only with 100 colors. The discussions about K-x calm down very quickly. USA presentation was like home party. K-x is not in top 20 at dpreview.com. Even K-m was more interesting for the customers. It's pity... Hoya want to attract the begginers, but the users of DS/K100D/k200D are not offered by new cameras... In Japan GF1, D5000 and EP-1 will press K-x. No doubts. Only colours K-x will help for some time in Japan...And then? Last edited by ogl; 09-23-2009 at 08:05 AM.

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09-22-2009, 07:32 AM	#31
kevinschoenmakers Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Shanghai Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,509	Originally posted by cyg It seems odd to think that Pentax would be the only major dslr manufacturer to be incapable or unwilling to market more than two models at the same time. (Although Sony may be stretching the segmentation to something ridiculous) There is plenty of room both price-wise and feature-wise for at least one intermediate model. Not to mention a model below the K-x.

09-22-2009, 07:33 AM	#32
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by gazonk Well, they haven't discontinued the K-m yet, so there are still 3 cameras... but I agree with you that the price gap is huge. My guess: Pentax will/need to do one of the following: 1) introduce a camera somewhere in between K-x and K-7 (with feature set more similar to K200D, e.g. AF confirmation, weather sealings and top LCD). If this makes the K-7 look less attractive, they may also introduce a "face lift" of the K-7. 2) OR - and this might be more probable: They've got an even better camera than the K-7 ready for some time next year. Probably still APS-C, but with even better features than the K-7. Then they could make K-7 the medium featured camera. K-m is discontinued from May-June, 2009. It's official information from official dealer Pentax in Russia. They had got the last consignment with K-m on June from Pentax Europe.

09-22-2009, 09:46 AM	#33
RMabo Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 845	Yes, the K-m is discontinued. The last ones was made this spring. So it is no longer in production and when stock is out it can't be ordered any more. Pentax Japan still has some left and that is why it is still on their homepage. But it is no longer being produced, only a few in old stock exist. It is quite funny to read this thread. You know, back in the *ist D, DS and DL-days, Pentax was often criticized for having too many models that were too similar and the customers got confused. So Pentax has tried to avoid that with their new serie, to create bodies with more differencies and bigger gap between them. And now some are criticising Pentax for having clearly defined cameras with big differencies between them. hahaha.

09-22-2009, 10:07 AM	#34
RawheaD Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: MA, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 831	Originally posted by ogl The confusion are only 2 cameras from Pentax. K-7 - $1250 K-x -$650. Olympus, Sony, Canon and Nikon offer big choice for the customers and nobody are in confusion. Hoya is not smaller than Nikon, for example. Of course there is confusion. Show a noob the Canon lineup and ask him/her which one he wants. Even after you explain all the differences between the various models, you'd still be lucky if the person can make up her mind based on the feature set. At the end of the day, they are likely to choose one model that most closely fits their budget (or, as often is the case, the one model immediately above it). To me, that's a stupid way to purchase a camera. Will the current Pentax lineup be able to satisfy everyone? Most likely not. That's not the point. When you ask the question "should Pentax introduce an intermediate model between the K-x and K-7", you can't base your answer solely on whether such a model would attract more customers (which it certainly will), but also whether or not the number of new customers you will attract would be worth the R&D as well as Marketing, for this new model. If the answer is No or only Maybe, then it may actually be beneficial to keep away from that segment. You should also remember that most customers, except for the first-time DSLR shooters (who will go for the K-x), are repeat customers, so an intermediate model will definitely cannibalize K-7 sales, perhaps resulting in an impact large enough to neutralize profits. Also, I'm talking about market share, not company size. Hoya being a big company has got nothing to do with it. Think MP3 players by Apple and Microsoft. MS is a much much bigger company. Does that mean MS should put out as many different models of their Zune players as Apple has iPod models? The answer is no, because the Zune market share is miniscule. Same principle. Now, of course, I may be totally wrong and we may see a K300D later this year, at which point I will concede to you all, but as it stands, I just don't see it coming, and I actually believe it's a GOOD thing for Pentax to stay focused on the two models (plus the 645D, of course :-)

09-22-2009, 01:47 PM	#35
TomE Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 299	How does any new buyer know what Pentax is selling since here in the USA they have NO presence in camera stores? They could have 10 new cameras and no one would know it other than people on forums like this. Tom

09-22-2009, 01:55 PM	#36
builttospill Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Utah, Idaho Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,398	Good point. Originally posted by ennacac How does any new buyer know what Pentax is selling since here in the USA they have NO presence in camera stores? They could have 10 new cameras and no one would know it other than people on forums like this. Tom

09-22-2009, 07:58 PM	#37
RawheaD Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: MA, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 831	Originally posted by ennacac How does any new buyer know what Pentax is selling since here in the USA they have NO presence in camera stores? They could have 10 new cameras and no one would know it other than people on forums like this. Tom All the more reason why Pentax would want to keep their lineup clean and simple. You don't want to get into how many AF points there are in this intermediate model, or whether or not there's AF confirmation in that intermediate model with a potential newcomer; you want something inyerface, bold, and to-the-point. In this sense, the K-m/K-x is fantastic. There are so many reasons why it makes sense for Pentax to stick with a two-tiered lineup, while there is only one reason why they should introduce an "intermediate" model––to satisfy the thrifty camera nerds that hang out in forums like this :-P

09-23-2009, 01:54 AM	#38
kevinschoenmakers Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Shanghai Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,509	I remain convinced there is enough 'space' left for a non-LV/non-Video camera somewhere in Pentax's line-up, whether above or below. There's quite a big gap between the bottom of dSLR prices - 300$ - and the K-x's 650$. And between the price of the K-x and the K-7.

09-23-2009, 02:42 AM	#39
creampuff Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,953	Originally posted by kevinschoenmakers I remain convinced there is enough 'space' left for a non-LV/non-Video camera somewhere in Pentax's line-up, whether above or below. There's quite a big gap between the bottom of dSLR prices - 300$ - and the K-x's 650$. And between the price of the K-x and the K-7. A No Live View/ non-video model is imo a non-starter at the current state of the market. It would be dead in the water sales wise simply because every other competing model now sports this feature.

09-23-2009, 04:07 AM	#40
walro Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Indiana Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 74	Originally posted by creampuff A No Live View/ non-video model is imo a non-starter at the current state of the market. It would be dead in the water sales wise simply because every other competing model now sports this feature. I have to agree. The issue is more LIve View, than video. This is the first thing that people moving from point and shoots to SLRs look for. They are used to taking photos in a certain way and if everyone else offers Live View and Pentax doesn't, than they will gravitate to other brands.

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09-23-2009, 05:09 AM	#41
RaduA Guest	I think I understand now what Hoya wants to do with the APS-C line of cameras. IMO getting out now a camera in between K-x and K-7 will be bad for them, stretching their production capabilities and even worse the ability to make gains in 2010. Also making a camera with modest performances to protect the K-7 will make it vulnerable to the canikon midrange units such as D90s successor. Pentax said they want to make 20K K-7 and 28K K-x per month. The combined 48K units per month would add up to 576K units per year which is a lot more than Pentax made in any year (dslr age of course). So there is no room for a third model and they can adjust between the 2 current models production figures according to the market demand. What I see happening is: - they will put on the market in q2/2010 the intermediate model which will probably inherit a lot of K-7 internals (with the possible exception of the sensor). A new plastic body will come with rounded lines and probably smaller on top because most likely the prism will be a .95x.95. Of course w.s. and maybe with a flip LCD on back. Same AF system as K-7, same exposure system, same video capabilities, same shutter and most likely very close fps. Will use the same grip as K-7 because only the top will be different and the same battery (and the ability of using AAs in the grip). But what about the sensor? Pentax now buys in pretty large quantities sensors from both Sony and Samsung so it is no stretch of imagination that they could chose the right offer and push one or another company to bid against each other but not only financially but also technologically so the one that can deliver the best sensor for the future flag ship camera after K-7 to take also the order for the mid range model!. Remember a future Pentax capable of making 600-750K units per year is no "third world customer" to any sensor making company IMO. - they will slowly retire the K-7 after that and announce @ Photokina 2010 the successor of the K-7 in the form of a camera comparable with D300s and 7D in terms of fps, new sensor, new AF system, 1080p video with advanced features and maybe a 1x1 pentaprism in the same small magnesium body of the k-7. So, I see in 2010 a true 3 camera line-up in the APS-C line with 645D above it as a prestigious flag ship. Radu

09-23-2009, 05:48 AM	#42
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563	Seems to me that Pentax is now in a position to keep letting the K-7/k20d type level of camera of last year or the year before just drop in price until the stock runs out, to cover the mid-range, or 'thrifty enthusiasts' as some called us. ) Kind of how I got my K20d, that, and I ain't crying. But one thing that makes me skeptical about the two-body line only is my surprise that the K-x didn't get weathersealing, and it seemed Pentax was really planning on having that be a defining feature of the brand. It's a feature everyone can understand, after all, and there's that whole outdoorsey angle.

09-23-2009, 06:04 AM	#43
68deluxe Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Australia/Africa Posts: 52	in a way I think it's great the way pentax have their line-up. It's well defined and easy to identify the purpose of each camera. I honestly think the way Canon market their cameras is to trick the purchaser by luring them up to the next level, ie for $200 more you get x, y and z! Canon have instantly increased profits, and the purchaser has spent more than they wanted, and probably have features they don't want/need. at least with pentax, if your budget is $700, there is no "oh I'll just spend a little more and get this..." $0.02

09-23-2009, 06:47 AM	#44
RMabo Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 845	It may be room in the lineup for a model without live-view and without video, the big question is - would it sell well enough to make Pentax profitable? The big thing in DSLR's now are live-view and video. Everyone is talking about them, the customers ask for those functions when they buys a new camera. Not so much old users of DSLR's that simply wants a new camera, but newcomers to DSLR's wants live-view and video, because they are used to those functions in their p&s digicams. When even the simplest p&s digicam has live-view and video, it is a challenge for the salespersonell to explain why a more expensive, more technically advanced and dearer DSLR doesn't have video.