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09-29-2009, 10:35 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
I dont own one, but having tested one I would not use it, no. However I would not use ISO3200 on a regular basis on any camera except a D3/D700.
I am routinely shooting 3200 on the 5D2, and 6400 will fly if necessary.

09-30-2009, 04:10 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clem Nichols Quote
I find these last few posts very interesting and also a little confusing. I've read numerous posts stating that even a technically bad photo can look good when viewed on a computer screen at its low resolution. I've also read several which claim that a printed photo will look better than the monitor version of a noisy picture. Considering noise only and disregarding any other factors affecting image quality, which is going to look better, the monitor version or a similarly sized printed picture? (Understand I'm not talking about a 4 x 6 inch print.)

CN
Prints generally look better, period. Your monitor simply has very poor detail resolution for its size (mine is 1600 X 1400 which is barely 2 MP). As a result prints looks sharper and better resolved. They also tend to have more contrast and better colour saturation, but because they are reflective rather than transmissive, they also have darker blacks and lose some shadow range (especially compared to some LCDs) and gain a bit of highlight detail (even when properly adjusted).

The problem is, when you resample the image to display on a screen, you are resampling from 14 MP to 1600X1200 or less (2MP). This hides most of the noise because the grain is too small to be resolved in the downsampling. When you print on A3 at 300 DPI you are not resampling, so colour noise is quite visible and distracting close up. Even if you cant see it from 2 feet away, its effect on colour is visible. You can of course downsample the image to 4MP and print on A4. You will not gain contrast or saturation but it will hide some of the noise.

High ISO pictures lose fine details, shadows and colour contrast to noise, so they have very limited dynamic range and less realistic colour. You CAN use this artistically of course. It has a certain "look". But generally if I cant get a decent shot I keep my camera in the bag. But like I said, I rarely shoot high ISO because I dont need to. Most of the time with SR I find I can get away with ISO 800 or a tripod and ISO100. With post processing, I can still print ISO800 shots at A3 by removing colour noise in PP (luma noise looks better and is less distracting).
09-30-2009, 04:34 AM   #18
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Steve:

Thanks for your response and enlightenment.

CN
09-30-2009, 06:52 AM   #19
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I really find that the biggest issue with high iso photos is decreased dynamic range, not noise. Using noiseware, I can make pretty noisy photos decent, but nothing can bring back dynamic range that isn't there. The higher the iso, the flatter the photos look.

09-30-2009, 07:06 AM   #20
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"I am routinely shooting 3200 on the 5D2, and 6400 will fly if necessary."


The the 5D2 costs $2979 on Amazon. The K7 costs $1,180. I would certainly hope that it would be a much camera for a $1,700 difference in price. You could actually buy two K7's for less than one 5D2 so I'm not sure what your point is.
09-30-2009, 08:17 AM   #21
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well his point is depend on different style of photography, less noise high ISO maybe needed for some ppl.
09-30-2009, 08:29 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by vizjerei Quote
well his point is depend on different style of photography, less noise high ISO maybe needed for some ppl.
Sure, that's great if you have almost 3X the $ to spend on a camera body. It's just not a point of comparison. It's like trying to compare the performance of a VW vs a Porsche. One would certainly expect the Porsche to be a better car.

I wouldn't try and compare a Leica camera's performance to a Pentax either. Seriously. It's just kind of silly when discussing the High ISO performance of a $1,200 camera to state your $2,900 camera outperforms it. I would certainly hope so.
09-30-2009, 09:00 AM   #23
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You use an inflated price on 5DII and deflated price on K-7

You use an inflated price on 5DII and deflated price on K-7 for your comparision.

If you look around , like even at Canon USA 5D Mark II is $2699, its FULL MSRP:


Canon EOS 5D Mark II Digital SLR Camera

Amazon crazy pricing from seller associates is why I have yet to drop a single dime with Amazon.Com. Its weird when I can buy a camera direct from CanonUsa for less then Amazon charges.

Anyways 5D Mark II should be on edge of price drop as its been a year now since it got announced and a couple months short of a year since its been buyable. A full year passed before 5D Classic dropped 1 cent, actually $400. Another year to drop another $400. I bought in at year three so I saved $1,250 & then $1550 at very end of production run on two brand new 5D Classics.

Whereas if you wait till April 2010 I predict Pentax K-7 will sell for a cent under $700 using the Pentax past dslr price drops to predict their future pricing. Time is money. Wait 6 to 8 months and save a solid $600 on Pentax K-7. Only true Pentaxians pay full inflated launch price for Pentax cameras. People like me wait and save half the outlay in just four to five months short of one year past initial launch.

Now if you own no dslr, then waiting is no fun. I paid full price for my first dslr in 2005. And thats the last time I did so. Once you have a Dslr inhand do you really need to be in first wave of new buyers? I don't.

Another point:

If one bought K20D & K-7 at their respective launch prices then one could have instead bought a 5D Mark II for $100 more. Then very usable iso 1600 plus settings & full frame would be in your tools kit if you don't mind owning eos mount lenses

If you want K Mount Dslr for your K Mount lenses then whatever Canon offers, like very pleasing iso 1600 and full frame should not matter to you irregardless of price. Own one brand and nothing else should matter. Own two or more brands/mounts and then things become interesting.

Like Nikon for me:

This hot rumour is rocking my imaging world, well, till I see the price my other two want list eos lens purchases are on hold:


nikon rumors on Flickr - Photo Sharing!





QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
"I am routinely shooting 3200 on the 5D2, and 6400 will fly if necessary."


The the 5D2 costs $2979 on Amazon. The K7 costs $1,180. I would certainly hope that it would be a much camera for a $1,700 difference in price. You could actually buy two K7's for less than one 5D2 so I'm not sure what your point is.



Last edited by Samsungian; 09-30-2009 at 10:04 AM.
09-30-2009, 11:10 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
"I am routinely shooting 3200 on the 5D2, and 6400 will fly if necessary."


The the 5D2 costs $2979 on Amazon. The K7 costs $1,180. I would certainly hope that it would be a much camera for a $1,700 difference in price. You could actually buy two K7's for less than one 5D2 so I'm not sure what your point is.
Yes ISO 3200 is OK on Canon, but it still has quite low contrast. Plus unless I use stabilised lenses (not many primes) I lose 3 stops anyway.

Low noise high ISO is great if you shoot sports in low light or wildlife. If you dont there is little benefit.
09-30-2009, 07:31 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
"I am routinely shooting 3200 on the 5D2, and 6400 will fly if necessary."


The the 5D2 costs $2979 on Amazon. The K7 costs $1,180. I would certainly hope that it would be a much camera for a $1,700 difference in price. You could actually buy two K7's for less than one 5D2 so I'm not sure what your point is.
I think his point was to plug the Canon relative to the Nikons. That is, the Canon can also take good ISO 3200, not just Nikon D3/D700.
10-01-2009, 02:33 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Photomy Quote
I think his point was to plug the Canon relative to the Nikons. That is, the Canon can also take good ISO 3200, not just Nikon D3/D700.
Yes, the Canon tops out at 3200 (IMO) the Nikons at 6400. Anything more is for recording purposes only.

The new Canon 7D is remarkably close to the 5Dmk2 though considering the difference in sensor pitch. 5D is definately sharper, but the 7D does a remarkable job all the same.
10-02-2009, 05:24 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Photomy Quote
I think his point was to plug the Canon relative to the Nikons. That is, the Canon can also take good ISO 3200, not just Nikon D3/D700.
Exactly. I wasn't comparing the 5D2 to the K7 - I was directly responding to the comment that only a D700/D3 was viable at iso3200.

I'm running IS lenses for most things so I'm not losing the stops. For some of what I shoot (low light candids and street) being able to routinely shoot 3200 and push it to 6400 makes a big difference. Where the K7 actually would/could win is with fast glass. I can't get an IS primes (other than the new 100/2.8 macro), so while I can shoot my 50/1.4 on the 5D2, I lose the IS. +1 for Pentax.

There is no perfect tool. And in fact I still haven't bought my "middle range" street cam and am still eyeing a K7 w/40ltd.
10-02-2009, 05:31 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Yes, the Canon tops out at 3200 (IMO) the Nikons at 6400. Anything more is for recording purposes only.

The new Canon 7D is remarkably close to the 5Dmk2 though considering the difference in sensor pitch. 5D is definately sharper, but the 7D does a remarkable job all the same.
I'm watching the 7D with interest. So far it looks like it is about 1 to 1.5 stops down on the 5D2, but has better/more flexible AF, higher FPS and more video options. In reality only the AF has me interested, though so far I'm pretty thrilled with shooting center point AF on the 5D2 with USM lenses compared to the Af on the K20d with ltd primes. It is more just shiny object syndrome, and the thought of having a second body to run L glass on.

The D300s vs 7D battle lines have been drawn. Pentax can hopefully sneak in and win some people on price/size between those two. I'm still most interested in K7 or X1 for my next camera...although I still wonder about adding a D700 for ridiculously low light shooting.
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