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12-01-2009, 05:28 PM   #541
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QuoteOriginally posted by Shingoshi Quote
My Sony H50 has a control dial on the back of the camera. ... And rather than spend more money on another camera which would only be marginally more effective than this one, I'm going manual instead.
wtf

you somehow think by going manual suddenly your camera has dslr quality?

sorry but you're sadly mistaken

the crappiest dslr on full auto will blow away your little compact

that's an imaginative way to troll a camera board...

12-01-2009, 06:19 PM   #542
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Thank you for such an affirmation... Indispensable article!

QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Plenty of pro's still shoot film though. Here's a good article:
http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.com/2009/04/everything-old-is-new-againphotography.html

I also read an article a while back (I believe it was on strobist.com) that said roughly 20% of pro's still shoot film.
I have to thank you for such a beautiful article that affirms my reasoning in this. But I also think some of this has to do with my age. And I once again think I'm talking to the wrong audience. I would really like to see samples of the work from those who have posted. I think there's likely a very big difference in how I approach photography compared to the comments of those I've read here. For me, photography is another form of painting, which I also do. It's just that I'm interpreting how light is PAINTED on the scenes I create images from. This articles comments on Black & White really hits home for me. The very fact that I shoot B & W, sets me aside from most everyone here. I think that if you're not accustomed to shooting B & W, you really can't understand or appreciate the emphasis I've placed on having a MONOCHROME sensor. He speaks directly to that by saying images created as color NEVER turn out right when converted to B & W. For one thing, you're immediately losing three pixels in B & W for every approximated pixel of color. But I've already covered that.

And the one thing very important to realize, this article emphasizes the needs of professional photographers. And I'm guessing there's going to be an even greater shift in the return of photography back to analog. As I stated, digital is better used as a tool in the analog process. It shouldn't entirely replace it.

QuoteOriginally posted by kristoffon Quote
wtf

you somehow think by going manual suddenly your camera has dslr quality?

sorry but you're sadly mistaken

the crappiest dslr on full auto will blow away your little compact

that's an imaginative way to troll a camera board...
I shoot as close to manual as I can with my Sony. Shooting in manual with the Sony is truly a nightmare.
1.) Aperture Priority (selecting depth of field as required)
2.) Exposure compensation (for almost every photo)
You should really read the article that Art Vandelay II posted.
Why does everything have to be seen as an argument. I asked a question. I wasn't declaring war on anyone's preference. I simply asked if there might be a better way to approach things. To suggest that anyone who raises questions about the NEED to shoot digital, as a form of trolling seems misinformed. I already stated I LIKE SHOOTING DIGITAL. It has really changed my my experience. But it has also taught me to reevaluate my thinking about my previous abandonment of film. My reevaluation has lead me to realize that I'm not willing to buy another digital camera. From now on, I will simply see my digital camera as a light meter that also takes pictures. Just like we have phones that take pictures. Most of us don't buy cellphones based on how well they can take pictures. I'm simply moving a few steps backwards (technologically speaking). From nifty little cellphones, to digital cameras back all the way to film. Both of the other two have their place. Cellphones are great for capturing instantaneous images and videos like those we see on YouTube. Digital cameras are great for capturing more detailed images that mimic film. But the bottomline is, that each of those two are mimicking the attributes of the next step up in quality. And for me, and many other photographers, that next step is film.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
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12-01-2009, 07:01 PM   #543
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I think this thread has been well and truly highjacked and is now way off the original subject of discussion and I request that a moderator please step in and either restore this thread or remove it, thanks.
12-01-2009, 07:08 PM   #544
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Well I have to agree. Somehow we went from discussing FF and your copy of the DPR rumour to discussing P&S vs manual whatever.

You are the OP (thread starter) and if you want me to close it fine, I will but if everyone wants to just get back on topic, then we can from this point on.

Anyone got any more juicy rumours about FF?

12-01-2009, 08:06 PM   #545
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QuoteOriginally posted by Shingoshi Quote
Read carefully what I wrote. Yes, I said image quality is important to me. But I went on to further explain that it's the process of shooting that I find interrupted with digital. I think that's precisely why Leica choose to have no automatic features in the M9. It's simply a manual camera with digital imaging. Not the reverse, where the digital imaging is emphasized over the manual control more discrete photographers prefer.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
ShingoshiDao
No, I think you're finding shooting a digital point and shoot to interfere with the process. Believe me, you'd be equally unhappy with the film equivalent of that H50. Don't compare mostly-manual SLRs and rangefinders with point and click consumer cameras.

And the M9 is manual (well, aperture priority auto exposure available) because of its heritage and because the existing glass does not support any full auto modes.

As for digital imaging "emphasized over the manual control more discrete photographers prefer" -- who cares if manual focus, autofocus, manual exposure, autoexposure, etc was used? In the end it's the image that counts. There are lots of talented and successful photographers using either approach, and they are judged by the work they produce, not the tools or the method.
12-01-2009, 08:14 PM   #546
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One more thing: why on earth do you think that a monochrome 6mp sensor would be equivalent to a color (bayer) sensor with 4x the photo sites? It's not really that simple. (edit: think about resolution and how in other than purely theoretical scenarios the resolution is based on luminosity and not chrominance)

Also, to show I do shoot B&W... with digital sometimes even. Can't say that I've had it get in the way of my shots.














Last edited by pingflood; 12-01-2009 at 08:30 PM.
12-01-2009, 09:55 PM   #547
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Back to the OP's topic....

There were moer Pentax full Frame rumors last year. That was back when Pentax and Samsung really looked like they actually were working together. But, this looks to have changed. Other then pentax buying th sensor for the K-7, there are no Samsung/Pentax joint ventures left.

I expect we will see the 645D at PMA (March), and on the shelves in April. The K-x replacement should appear mid summer, this gets us to Photokina in September where we should see the K-7's replacement anounced. This will give Pentax a chance to show a prototype FF (K-2) behind a glass case. (speculation only)

If this is what happens, we might see a couple of FF zooms appear. Without the road map, I can only imagine the greatness that is in store for us. maybe a 16-35 f4, a 24-85 f2.8, and they anounce the 60-250 f4 is FF already, plus a 70-210 f2.8. Lenses are for sale early in the new year, and the K-2 is available late summer of 2011.

Maybe Pentax might announce a FF in 2010, but certainly not for sale.


--------------------------


Hey Shingoshi and others,

As this thread has gone way off topic, how about we continue the "Kodak experiment" over here:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/everything-else/82005-i-defy-your-logic-m...tml#post830606

Last edited by KungPOW; 12-01-2009 at 10:43 PM.
12-01-2009, 11:20 PM   #548
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Thanks KungPOW for diverting the "off topic" part of this thread.
As to your comments I tend to reluctantly agree with your overall assesment. Pentax have announced that some sort of partnership is afoot and given that they have used a Sony sensor in the Kx it may well be that an alliance has already been forged (we know how close Pentax plays their cards to their chest). So who knows what is going on behind closed doors. No-one really saw the Kx coming, so they might just surprise us again. If it is true that the FF may only be announced in 2010, I only hope they don't drag their feet as they have done with the 645D (a marketing blunder IMHO).
The results of the "Would you buy a FF" thread were interesting. Over 280 respondents, which is a fair sample, with over 60% indicating that they would purchase a Pentax FF. That would seem to indicate a reasonable market, given that information I have gleaned off the net recently shows the sales of FF's to be going ok, Canon 5D Mk2's are selling out at some retail outlets.
What surprised me was the low number of people who were prepared to move to another brand FF. This may be because of that famous Pentax loyalty, or their current investment in Pentax gear. I am actually holding off buying any more lenses until I see where the road is heading. 2011 may be too late for me (and others), however if Pentax can dangle a juicy enough carrot in front of me I might be persuaded to use that time to build up a FF lens collection...if the timeframe is reasonable!

BTW Pingflood great B&W shots!

12-02-2009, 02:01 AM   #549
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If they release it at 2011 ill prob saved enuff for 645d lol
12-02-2009, 02:53 AM   #550
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APS-C + MF = FF?

I'm probably showing my ignorance here, but I can't help but think that if Pentax have the R&D down for for both APS-C and MF systems, then it should be almost trivial to produce a FF system. In other words, what's stopping Pentax from producing a FF system by either scaling up APS-C technologies, or scaling down MF technologies, as appropriate?

Let's suppose for a moment that a Pentax do indeed have a FF system in the works. If so, they're clearly being VERY careful to play these particular cards close to their corporate chest. And it would make perfect sense for them to do so. Probably the majority of their customers for a FF system would be existing Pentax users. So advance news of a Pentax FF system would just cannibalise sales of K-7 bodies and APS-C lenses.
12-02-2009, 05:02 AM   #551
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Pingflood: Your work is Beautiful!!

But as to your question. Color requires four sensor pixels to render one image pixel. 1xR, 1xB and 2xG. From those four pixels a composite is provided. That's what I was saying. With Black & White, every sensor pixel is used to create one monochrome pixel. So any FF sensor is losing 75% of it's capacity in the creation of color. I think that's part of the motivation for the advancement in sensor resolutions. You just need more to do color. So it would be mice if someone marketed a FF monochrome camera. There's just not enough of a market for it.

Really liked your photos!

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
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12-02-2009, 06:40 AM   #552
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QuoteOriginally posted by Shingoshi Quote
But as to your question. Color requires four sensor pixels to render one image pixel. 1xR, 1xB and 2xG. From those four pixels a composite is provided. That's what I was saying. With Black & White, every sensor pixel is used to create one monochrome pixel. So any FF sensor is losing 75% of it's capacity in the creation of color. I think that's part of the motivation for the advancement in sensor resolutions. You just need more to do color. So it would be mice if someone marketed a FF monochrome camera. There's just not enough of a market for it.

Really liked your photos!

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
ShingoshiDao
Thanks for the compliments.

Now, a color camera doesn't use 4 pixels to create one. What it does is store the luminosity values for each pixel, then interpolates the color from the surrounding pixels.

RGB

So color accuracy on a pixel level is theoretically not very good, though in the real world it really doesn't make a big difference.

One thing you really would gain from a monochrome sensor is sensitivity. Since you have the filters over each pixel you lose a fair bit of light.

There's one company that makes a 14MP monochrome sensor, and I would love to see one put into a camera sometime. Hopefully with things becoming more modular (Ricoh is blazing the trail here) it'll become reality before we're too old to enjoy it.
12-02-2009, 06:48 AM   #553
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Excuse me Shingoshi didn't you read the previous posts? Please continue your discussion in the link kindly provided by Kungpow......

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/everything-else/82005-i-defy-your-logic-m...tml#post830606

.......and leave this thread for the discussion it was intended for.
12-02-2009, 07:28 AM   #554
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Yes, let's start a new thread for the sensor/Kodak/bayer/blah discussions, sorry for the hijack.
12-02-2009, 07:32 AM   #555
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QuoteOriginally posted by asw66 Quote
I'm probably showing my ignorance here, but I can't help but think that if Pentax have the R&D down for for both APS-C and MF systems, then it should be almost trivial to produce a FF system. In other words, what's stopping Pentax from producing a FF system by either scaling up APS-C technologies, or scaling down MF technologies, as appropriate?

Let's suppose for a moment that a Pentax do indeed have a FF system in the works. If so, they're clearly being VERY careful to play these particular cards close to their corporate chest. And it would make perfect sense for them to do so. Probably the majority of their customers for a FF system would be existing Pentax users. So advance news of a Pentax FF system would just cannibalise sales of K-7 bodies and APS-C lenses.

There are multiple problems associated with FF. Do I think Pentax will go FF(?) .... yes... but not immediately.

The development of a sensor is issue one. A Kodak downsizing is likely not an answer. The 645D sensor by Kodak will certainly do well in the studio and on a tripod in the field and supported by nice studio/monolite setups for event work. But the ISO range is very limited and would certainly be attacked by the high ISO users as useless...which, for the most part it would be.

The lens issue might be mitigated by auto sizing on the sensor a la nikon.

The development of DFA lenses could be mangaged, and some of the older Pentax FA lenses and a limited number of DA's might cushion the transition, but the resolving power of the sensor would ultimately require better glass (for professional use at least) than what is out there now. Lens manufacturing is an issue which will take time to solve. However, Pentax has proven, with their selection of DA lenses, that they can produce a nice stable of lenses.

Also, money is an issue. Many who say the will buy probably won't. And once the naysayers (which forums attract like magnets) start pixel peeping at the edges and corners of the images the wailing will really start. Those porblmes will be there just like they were on film... which only pros looked at closely to determine grain compatability and lens defects.


It was my intention to pick up the 645D when I knew it was only going to be 22MP. If it hit the streets at 10K fine. But at 39MP I would have to ask myself, would I drop my film use for a sensor that cost $40K only two years ago. I have no idea what the pricing of the 645D will be now with such a hirez sensor. If it stays around 10K fine. But at 15-20K who knows?

Stephen
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