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10-21-2009, 04:35 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kguru Quote
Has it occurred to you the FF body may be SDM only?
It hasn't. The keyword is 'legacy'

10-21-2009, 04:48 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by LensScribe Quote
It hasn't. The keyword is 'legacy'
Agree on that one.
Can't see Pentax suddenly ditching all the classic screwdrive lenses when they've always been about backward compatibility.

Too much at stake with the FA and DA Limiteds in particular...
10-21-2009, 08:03 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kguru Quote
Has it occurred to you the FF body may be SDM only?
The thought has occasionally crossed my mind. However, the more I have thought about it, the less concerned I am. It would be suicidal for Pentax to drop screwdrive lenses, especially in case of a high-end/pro-category body .
10-21-2009, 08:59 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Let me bring my cost calculation made in August to your attention:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/516776-post23.html
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/516744-post21.html
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/517235-post39.html

It is made from available public sources and general engineering wisdom. It never was seriously challenged.

A full frame sensor is 100$ to make.

(if in the same quantity as an APS-C sensor which in case of the K20D sensor isn't that much). Asking price on the market (Kodak and alike) may be much higher though. But if taken seriously enough, a sub 1000$ FF camera could be made (as it would increase the price by 400$: Just add a full frame sensor to a 600$ entry body ...) However, no vendor (yet) is ready to cannibalize its own market this much.

EDIT:
+100$, add x2 for manufacturer margin, add another 2x for sales channel margins => +400$ MSRP.
Falk

Great info, thanks for the links. According to that calculator, an APS-H chip of the size seen in the 1D series would yield 114 chips vs 164 APS-C chips and 66 FF chips. What would you guesstimate the other variables would run (yield rate, etc)?

10-21-2009, 09:06 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
Interestingly I was at a Pentax Event that the Outdoor Pro Photographer Kerrick James was speaking whom uses Pentax. When asked about full frame he said he did not need full frame. So if Pentax is listening to Pro's like him we will not see full frame. He did however say he really wants medium format digital.
If Pentax was listening to pros the 645D wouldn't be on-again, off-again, on-again. They'd produce it and make the pros happy.

Beginner photographers, hobbyists and many semi-pros are doing quite well with their APS-C sensors and may not be able to justify the dollars for the other brand full frame upgrades. These same people aren't going to run to the store to buy the 645D once it's released. Pros may and will stand in line, but I'm not going to be able to afford the medium format once it's released; however, I'm ready for a full frame K-mount, and I think many others would be ready and willing with a traditional Pentax price beating the competition.

Pentax would be smart to produce different cameras designed around multiple sensor sizes to specifically target different consumers.
10-21-2009, 10:36 AM   #66
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This may be a n00b question but:

When Pentax releases a FF model, will it be K-mount? Will current APS-C lenses work on a FF? if not then why?

thanks.
10-21-2009, 10:49 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mortox Quote
This may be a n00b question but:

When Pentax releases a FF model, will it be K-mount? Will current APS-C lenses work on a FF? if not then why?

thanks.
camera lens mountings are actually lens fittings designed specifically by camera brand. lens mounting design does not affect the lens functionality on a camera body. it is rather how the lens circuitry was purposely designed electrically and electronically for functionality on an APS-C or FF body. in today's technology, camera brands are making bodies that can be used with both APS-C lenses and FF lenses. so it's possible that Pentax would do the same.

p.s. this maybe the reason why some camera brands cannot use some specifics Pentax lenses like the LTD's on their camera even with adapters nor physically altering the lenses mountings. it can fit on the camera but it won't work due to compatibility.
10-21-2009, 10:53 AM   #68
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Pentax will never offer full frame dslr

Pentax will never offer full frame dslr

The Prez of Pentax USA said so. Full Frame isn't on the roadmap. Whereas 645D is on roadmap and it does not exist. Full frame K Mount just will not happen.

I lived on the same type of thread posted last year. I got tired of waiting and bought elsewhere. Now I've had full frame for 18 months. No regrets.

But you can wait like I did from 2005 thru 2008 and then shop elsewhere after you too grow tired of waiting for full frame K Mount.

QuoteOriginally posted by Mortox Quote
This may be a n00b question but:

When Pentax releases a FF model, will it be K-mount? Will current APS-C lenses work on a FF? if not then why?

thanks.


10-21-2009, 11:26 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Pentax will never offer full frame dslr

The Prez of Pentax USA said so.
Where?
10-21-2009, 11:40 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Full Frame isn't on the roadmap.
That would kill the DA sales. Not so clever, huh?

IMO, Hoya has analyzed the options:
- keeping quiet and loose a few old customers to FF camps of today
- or years in advance announcing a FF not utilizing the full image circle by the current lenses

The outcome is silent
10-21-2009, 11:43 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mortox Quote
This may be a n00b question but:

When Pentax releases a FF model, will it be K-mount? Will current APS-C lenses work on a FF? if not then why?

thanks.
Here's one take on that question I found by searching Google: Full frame Vs. APS-C Steff’s Journal of Insanity
10-21-2009, 11:47 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
That would kill the DA sales. Not so clever, huh?
I don't know about that. I can't see Pentax's side of the story, but other brands that carry FF still have strong APS-C lines. Unless I'm missing something Pentax could do very well if they did things right.
10-21-2009, 11:50 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Pentax will never offer full frame dslr
This is a very strong statement really. I really hope you are wrong at it too. Despite you mentioned you have no regrets, I feel you feel frustrated about Pentax not releasing the FF camera yet.
10-21-2009, 11:52 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
The outcome is silent
Hehe the trouble is that keeping silent is best strategy for Pentax any way, no matter if they are going to release FF or not.

We are doomed for suffering
10-21-2009, 11:55 AM   #75
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Whats Ned Saying about Full Frame?

Whats Ned Saying about Full Frame?

Is he saying Pentax FullFrame is due to market in 2010 ???

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Where?
>>>"

Saturday, April 25, 2009
Op-Ed thoughts by the Spa



After a particularly grueling and long week, it was really nice to get back home for a weekend of relaxation. This morning as I was reading the NY Times and enjoying coffee in my back yard, I realized there were a number of related topics and discussions that occurred this week in the small corner of the world we call photography that is then further segmented by those that have an interest in all things Pentax. So consider this an "op ed" post or collection of thoughts and comments that I will post throughout the weekend. There won't be any order to the comments that I add, and there's no significance to the order in which I post these snippets.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Having seen a lot of less than complimentary things said about me in the past, which I understand is part of being open and approachable on the internet, I had to laugh this morning when I read this comment by GnusMas on pentaxforums that was in response to a heated exchange on who knew more about a certain upcoming model from Pentax..."Ahh its OK maybe next year you to can buddy up to Ned at the PMA and try to get your very own NDA . I suggest you start building your tomato shot portfolio I hear that's one way into NED's heart. lol." I think the whole point about my love of tomatoes stems from the realization that what tends to typify many Pentax shooters is that they have a pretty balanced life wherein photography is only one of their passions and pursuits. I think we tend to harbor a higher percentage of independent minded shooters who enjoy the pursuit of photography first and are less obsessed with their gear. So GnusMas is right, the way to my heart is to show a balance of passion for life and make sure your love of photography is not at the expense of other priorities including nuturing the relationship with your family and close friends.
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The photo for this post was taken with the K20D and DA15 lens, shot in RAW and processed in-camera to produce a "soft" jpeg.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Regarding the tempest on pentaxforums about whether Rice High knows more about the upcoming K-model than Yvon Borque, consider this. Just like any other company in high-tech, we have a number of journalists that represent traditional print as well as web, who have signed NDA's and are at various stages of evaluating a new product offering. We've had long standing relationships with these folks, and this is critical in making sure information about a new product is available at the time of announcement. None of this is possible without a great sense of trust by both parties. Therefore, it's a reality that while some people will have knowledge prior to an announce dates, others will have to speculate and I guess that's fine in this new cyber world where rumors tend to create so much buzz that the actual announcement almost becomes a letdown.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
I've never met him, but quite a few of you should cut RiceHigh some slack. I don't always agree with what he says, but he has every right to post his thoughts. He has strong opinions, and is passionate about what he does. Last time I checked, there's no restriction on having a point of view either in print or on-line.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Mike Johnston had some great things to say about buying a camera in his post this week by not selecting the "T.O.P. Ten Recommended Cameras: #3". His conclusion was "all of these cameras are truly excellent devices that will serve any thoughtful and hardworking photographer very, very well—very well indeed. Pick one and be done." If you haven't read this post, check it out...
T.O.P Ten Recommended Cameras:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Square sensor and full frame??? Executives in Japan have said we'll release a model this summer that is more advanced than the K20D, and that we have re-started development of the 645D which is expected to be released in 2010. When asked about full frame (meaning 35mm camera body), we commented this would be very difficult in the near future. To those that continue to postulate or argue that the new camera better be full frame, ask yourself what lenses are you planning to use on this hypothetical new full frame body?



As I received a few comments on this, let me clarify my tongue-in-cheek comment. Anyone that is currently using a full frame sensor 35mm camera knows that they exact a high price in terms of the lenses that perform acceptably. Many lenses originally designed for film fall short in terms of distortion control and edge-to-edge sharpness when used with a full frame sensor. I have a good friend who currently shoots high-end weddings in Southern California with a 5D. While he loves the fact he can now use his wide angle lenses, he has quite a few lenses he's shot with for years that he can no longer use.



In our case, if we developed a full frame camera, it's likely that very few of our recent DA lenses (those designed for APS-C) would be able to properly fill the viewing area of this new sensor. And although we have some wonderful FA lenses, like my favorite FA 31mm Limited, I'm not sure even this lens would be up to the optical challenge.



I know that our engineers have studied these issues and would probably not agree totally with my simplistic explanation. However, I think it's important to understand that going to a full frame sensor means not only having to design a brand new camera from ground up, but likely a new line of lenses that meet the more demanding optical requirements.



It's clear that there is a place for full frame cameras, but it currently is a small part of the overall SLR market. Due to the total cost of ownership and increased demands shooting with full frame images, the majority of cameras sold will still use APS-C, 4/3rds type sensors.



Despite some of our desires to always want newer, faster, better technology, I'm not sure that many of us would see a dramatic improvement in our photography if we were given a full frame sensor camera. Personally, I think we've hit the sweet spot with APS-C sensor cameras today. 12-15 megapixels is more than adequate for even your most demanding assignments, we've got far better control of noise, frame rates and processing speeds are sufficient for the majority of work advanced or serious photographers need and all of this is available at very reasonable price points, regardless of your choice of brand.



In closing this train of thought, the whole full frame debate reminds me of the sometimes wine-induced arguments I have with a buddy of mine over the performance of our 5 series BMW's. I always end these discussions by saying if he really, really demands/needs/desires higher performance then shut up and buy an M5 or 7 series. As you'd expect, he's still shooting...uh I mean driving his beautiful 5 series bimmer.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
As RiceHigh aptly points out, any legacy lens would work on a 35mm full frame camera. There's no question about this, the real concern is about the image quality produced by these lens.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

posted by Ned Bunnell at 11:00 AM 69 comments links to this

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