And if FF isn't on the roadmap at a certain time point, it will never be there? And big corp execs always tell customers all their plans?

[Kunzite]

Samsungian:
"this would be very difficult in the near future", that's what he said.
"Pentax will never offer full frame dslr" - that's what you said. Never, not "in 2010".
Should I say more?

[Samsungian]

Oh thats right this silly thread provides PROOF full frame K Mount will happen in 2010, just 2&1/2 months from now...

Irregardless if it does launch in 2 months to 14 months I guess we only have up to 14 months to know for sure, huh?

Kinda a bummer the stellar spectacular 31mm Limited won't hold up on full frame? Canon and Nikon both make $1,000 lenses that do hold up well on full frame.

Enjoy the wait...

I know I did:

NOT !

Whats Ned Saying about Full Frame?

Is he saying Pentax FullFrame is due to market in 2010 ???



>>>"

Saturday, April 25, 2009
Op-Ed thoughts by the Spa



After a particularly grueling and long week, it was really nice to get back home for a weekend of relaxation. This morning as I was reading the NY Times and enjoying coffee in my back yard, I realized there were a number of related topics and discussions that occurred this week in the small corner of the world we call photography that is then further segmented by those that have an interest in all things Pentax. So consider this an "op ed" post or collection of thoughts and comments that I will post throughout the weekend. There won't be any order to the comments that I add, and there's no significance to the order in which I post these snippets.
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Having seen a lot of less than complimentary things said about me in the past, which I understand is part of being open and approachable on the internet, I had to laugh this morning when I read this comment by GnusMas on pentaxforums that was in response to a heated exchange on who knew more about a certain upcoming model from Pentax..."Ahh its OK maybe next year you to can buddy up to Ned at the PMA and try to get your very own NDA . I suggest you start building your tomato shot portfolio I hear that's one way into NED's heart. lol." I think the whole point about my love of tomatoes stems from the realization that what tends to typify many Pentax shooters is that they have a pretty balanced life wherein photography is only one of their passions and pursuits. I think we tend to harbor a higher percentage of independent minded shooters who enjoy the pursuit of photography first and are less obsessed with their gear. So GnusMas is right, the way to my heart is to show a balance of passion for life and make sure your love of photography is not at the expense of other priorities including nuturing the relationship with your family and close friends.
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The photo for this post was taken with the K20D and DA15 lens, shot in RAW and processed in-camera to produce a "soft" jpeg.
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Regarding the tempest on pentaxforums about whether Rice High knows more about the upcoming K-model than Yvon Borque, consider this. Just like any other company in high-tech, we have a number of journalists that represent traditional print as well as web, who have signed NDA's and are at various stages of evaluating a new product offering. We've had long standing relationships with these folks, and this is critical in making sure information about a new product is available at the time of announcement. None of this is possible without a great sense of trust by both parties. Therefore, it's a reality that while some people will have knowledge prior to an announce dates, others will have to speculate and I guess that's fine in this new cyber world where rumors tend to create so much buzz that the actual announcement almost becomes a letdown.
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I've never met him, but quite a few of you should cut RiceHigh some slack. I don't always agree with what he says, but he has every right to post his thoughts. He has strong opinions, and is passionate about what he does. Last time I checked, there's no restriction on having a point of view either in print or on-line.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Mike Johnston had some great things to say about buying a camera in his post this week by not selecting the "T.O.P. Ten Recommended Cameras: #3". His conclusion was "all of these cameras are truly excellent devices that will serve any thoughtful and hardworking photographer very, very well—very well indeed. Pick one and be done." If you haven't read this post, check it out...
T.O.P Ten Recommended Cameras:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Square sensor and full frame??? Executives in Japan have said we'll release a model this summer that is more advanced than the K20D, and that we have re-started development of the 645D which is expected to be released in 2010. When asked about full frame (meaning 35mm camera body), we commented this would be very difficult in the near future. To those that continue to postulate or argue that the new camera better be full frame, ask yourself what lenses are you planning to use on this hypothetical new full frame body?



As I received a few comments on this, let me clarify my tongue-in-cheek comment. Anyone that is currently using a full frame sensor 35mm camera knows that they exact a high price in terms of the lenses that perform acceptably. Many lenses originally designed for film fall short in terms of distortion control and edge-to-edge sharpness when used with a full frame sensor. I have a good friend who currently shoots high-end weddings in Southern California with a 5D. While he loves the fact he can now use his wide angle lenses, he has quite a few lenses he's shot with for years that he can no longer use.



In our case, if we developed a full frame camera, it's likely that very few of our recent DA lenses (those designed for APS-C) would be able to properly fill the viewing area of this new sensor. And although we have some wonderful FA lenses, like my favorite FA 31mm Limited, I'm not sure even this lens would be up to the optical challenge.



I know that our engineers have studied these issues and would probably not agree totally with my simplistic explanation. However, I think it's important to understand that going to a full frame sensor means not only having to design a brand new camera from ground up, but likely a new line of lenses that meet the more demanding optical requirements.



It's clear that there is a place for full frame cameras, but it currently is a small part of the overall SLR market. Due to the total cost of ownership and increased demands shooting with full frame images, the majority of cameras sold will still use APS-C, 4/3rds type sensors.



Despite some of our desires to always want newer, faster, better technology, I'm not sure that many of us would see a dramatic improvement in our photography if we were given a full frame sensor camera. Personally, I think we've hit the sweet spot with APS-C sensor cameras today. 12-15 megapixels is more than adequate for even your most demanding assignments, we've got far better control of noise, frame rates and processing speeds are sufficient for the majority of work advanced or serious photographers need and all of this is available at very reasonable price points, regardless of your choice of brand.



In closing this train of thought, the whole full frame debate reminds me of the sometimes wine-induced arguments I have with a buddy of mine over the performance of our 5 series BMW's. I always end these discussions by saying if he really, really demands/needs/desires higher performance then shut up and buy an M5 or 7 series. As you'd expect, he's still shooting...uh I mean driving his beautiful 5 series bimmer.
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As RiceHigh aptly points out, any legacy lens would work on a 35mm full frame camera. There's no question about this, the real concern is about the image quality produced by these lens.
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posted by Ned Bunnell at 11:00 AM 69 comments links to this

<<<"

Samsungian, I don't understand your reason for getting personally offended if people believe Pentax will eventually release an FF camera and you don't believe it.

[Samsungian]

I'm not offended that unnamed pentax insiders say pentax will make full frame K Mount available in 2010.

Sorry it seems that way.

I lived thru the last huge thread in 2007-2008 here that said the same thing.

Hey maybe in 2011 and again in 2012 we'll have another couple threads using no sources that prove Pentax will make a full frame K mount?

Its All Good.

Not much longer to wait, well, this time around...

Samsungian, I don't understand your reason for getting personally offended if people believe Pentax will eventually release an FF camera and you don't believe it.

[Pentaxor]

can't blame if Samsungian lost all hope for a Pentax FF. eventhough it maybe quite a longshot or just a wishful thinking, there might be a glimmer of hope. especially now that Hoya has taken over, this might create a difference. well, we did see changes changes that people wanted in the K-7 from the K-8's shortcomings (except the High ISO Noise performance but definitely improved in regards with chroma noises). the introduction and inclusion of a newly developed sensor from Sony is another development with regards to changes. so why not a FF? I know it's been long overdue and people had wanted one. I think that Pentax Hoya would sooner or later realize the importance or market of a FF dslr. they are already making an aggressive marketing ads, a move that Pentax never did years ago. so that could be a sign as well. not to mention the price hike in lenses which is quite bad for us, maybe a pre-emptive move before they release a FF. I know it's just a speculation but otherwise with some degree of basis. hope that Pentax HOYA is listening more this time around.

[Ash]

Smaller company, smaller budget, smaller R&D department... it'll take longer for newer cams to get on the market. If Canikon decided today they'd want a dMF camera in their lineup, they'll get it done very quickly...

[fs999]

On French forum, people are talking about 2011.

Yes. I was in the VIP part of the booth and the manager said 2011 for the FF camera, feb. 2010 for the 645D and a surprise for 2010 (mirror less cam).

[Angevinn]

Oh thats right this silly thread provides PROOF full frame K Mount will happen in 2010, just 2&1/2 months from now...

Kinda a bummer the stellar spectacular 31mm Limited won't hold up on full frame? Canon and Nikon both make $1,000 lenses that do hold up well on full frame.

We just hear rumors of a FF Pentax DSLR and hope for one. We don't know the exact final specs. The rumor from Ogl was that the FF Pentax DSLR will be shown in 2010 but for sale in 2011. Ogl was right before about the K-7 and K-X. It was leaked earlier this year that Samsung was still R&D'ing FF sensors but had not started production on any.

A FF sensor may outresolve the 31mm Limited but I'm not going to throw my copy of this great lens away. There is a lot of speculation at this point, without final specs and testing there is no way of knowing which lenses will hold up on a FF Pentax DSLR. FF cameras can still give decent results from legacy glass.

Here is an example of an old Carl Zeiss Jena Pancolar (Zebra, Single Coated) on a Canon 5D, Flickr is full of great examples of legacy glass used on FF DSLR's like the Sony A900 and Canon 5D.

MG_6621 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

and an example of the M42 Tomioka 55mm 1.4 on a Canon 5D

http://www.flickr.com/photos/yoyo31/2816551495/

I have a friend that gets some great results from his Canon 5D Mark II and old Takumars (Super and Super Multi Coated). I've been tempted to switch to Canon for their M42 support but as an old Nikon shooter I just don't really care for Canon cameras or lenses.

I'm certain I'll buy new Pentax DFA lenses when I buy a new FF Pentax DSLR in the future. Legacy lenses will have their uses too. Advancements are always being made in sensors and micro lens arrangements that can improve image capturing. You can do a lot through post processing also.

[falconeye]

What would you guesstimate the other variables would run (yield rate, etc)?

I provided this info in my third link. It was:

"I found this for the defect density:
http://www.icknowledge.com/trends/defects.pdf
With a defect density of 0.04/cm^2 (year 2000, 2009 projection is 0.01/cm^2 ...), "

A 300mm (12") wafer has a surface (including waste) of 700 cm^2, translating into 7 - 28 defects per wafer depending on which figure you use.

Pentax will never offer full frame dslr
The Prez of Pentax USA said so.

He never said so. He always argued that it wouldn't make much sense which is something different.

Of course will Pentax go full frame some day. No doubt. Especially as the K mount is FF already.

But it may be that Pentax waits until the moment where full frame system performance (body+lenses for a given image quality) for full frame is cheaper than APS-C. This day will come. APS-C system performance already IS cheaper than FourThirds.

I can wait until that day. I don't need a 15 MPixel full frame body. But any affordable 40 MPixel body will be full frame and it will be from Pentax.

[tigrebleu]

But any affordable 40 MPixel body will be full frame and it will be from Pentax.

Most probably. I just hope they won't go that far in terms of pixel density. Somewhere between 20 and 30 Mpix on a FF is way more than enough for 99% of users. The others can turn to the MF digital backs: Leaf, PhaseOne, Hasselblad.

[ilya80]

Kinda a bummer the stellar spectacular 31mm Limited won't hold up on full frame? Canon and Nikon both make $1,000 lenses that do hold up well on full frame.

I know Canon offers their sexy 35\1.4L but what does Nikon offer for that focal length?

[falconeye]

Most probably. I just hope they won't go that far in terms of pixel density.

It's less than it appears ...

40MP on FF is a pixel pitch of 4.6 µm only and the K20D/K-7 are at 5 µm already.

A FF camera can even handle 100MP (2.94 µm) with 170 lp/mm lenses which do exist.

I guesstimate 40MP to be the level where full frame starts to be cheaper than APS-C.

[Kunzite]

Btw, I don't expect a Pentax FF next year, but I also don't completely rule of the possibility. Certainly, Pentax is technically capable to launch a FF camera, together with two or three (at start) lenses. But will they do it? Can they do it next year?
What I expect, is something - at Photokina 2010. No inside info (for now), no rumor, no details (I won't even try to guess the format: APS-C? FF? anything else?) - just a hunch. As Photokina is a very good occasion to launch something nice But it could be "just" the K-7's successor...

[ewalk]

I know Canon offers their sexy 35\1.4L but what does Nikon offer for that focal length?

There is the much-appreciated 35mm f/2 ZF from Zeiss. It might not be AF, but the build- and image-quality is top notch. There are also rumors floating around about a new Zeiss 35mm f/1.4 in ZE/ZF/ZK mounts...