Possible Pentax FF Sensor

bunegg · 10-22-2009, 07:38 PM

woah~ another interesting piece of info

Zebooka · 10-23-2009, 12:29 AM

I would be glad to see Pentax FF camera in K10D/K20D body size. This will be awesome!

Erik · 10-23-2009, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by Asahiflex

I suspect the same. I can imagine the new FF camera being equipped with the good old pre-A diaphragm simulator, so that all K-mount lenses can be used. A camera like this will set like hot cakes, even though there are almost no new FF lenses for it available.

This ain't going to happen, even though I would love it if it did. Remember that Pentax decided to cripple the K-mount even before its first DSLR came out -- it's going to stay crippled forever. Sorry.

Erik · 10-23-2009, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by Angevinn

How many DA lenses did Pentax launch their first DSLR, the *ist D with?

I know this is a rhetorical question, but the answer is less than "not many", it is zero. It launched with one FA-J lens, which was not explicitely designed for digital.

eurostar · 10-23-2009, 12:59 AM

And the istD didn't sell enough, it was too late-too expensive, I wouldn't take it as an exaple of what is correct to do.

**Ash** · 10-23-2009, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by Erik

This ain't going to happen, even though I would love it if it did. Remember that Pentax decided to cripple the K-mount even before its first DSLR came out -- it's going to stay crippled forever. Sorry.

Why does Pentax have to stay married to the idea of a crippled K-mount?
What makes a Pentax dSLR not be able to support auto stop-down metering of K and M lenses?

Erik · 10-23-2009, 02:23 AM

Originally posted by Ash

Why does Pentax have to stay married to the idea of a crippled K-mount?
What makes a Pentax dSLR not be able to support auto stop-down metering of K and M lenses?

There's no technical reason that it can not be done, but Pentax has not released a camera with a fully functional K-mount since 2001, and the entire market is moving away from mechanical parts in cameras as much as possible, so I really doubt Pentax will ever make a body more expensive just so it can fully support lenses from the 1970's -- and therefore cannibalize sales of new lenses.

Almost everyone on this forum is an enthusiast with a few old lenses kicking around and we would all love to see the mechanical stop down coupling return, but in the eyes of the marketing department, that means nothing.

Class A · 10-23-2009, 03:27 AM

Originally posted by ogl

It could be cool, this sensor was in Kodak FF camera.

Hmmh, earlier you wrote

Quote:

20-22 MP. The manufacturer - Kodak or Samsung.

So it seems you don't know after all?

To your credit you later on wrote

Quote:

The manufacturer - no info.
Sony or Samsung. I've heard - not above 15 MP.

It appears you forgot to add a "I believe..." to your first statement.

Originally posted by Ash

Why does Pentax have to stay married to the idea of a crippled K-mount?

They could provide better support for old lenses right now through software, e.g., by letting the user dial in the f-ratio, matching it with the f-ratio set on the lens. A tiny bit of software but they don't do it. Sends a message to me.

RaduA · 10-23-2009, 04:29 AM

The answers are in the very datasheet you included:

Originally posted by Angevinn

With all the rumors of possible sensor suppliers (Kodak, Samsung, Cypress and Hitachi) I wonder if Hoya/Pentax is shopping around to get the best possible price. By creating competition among the different sensor suppliers for price quotes, Hoya/Pentax is bound to get a good deal on the final sensor that will go into the new Pentax FF DSLR.

Some things that are important to me in a future Pentax FF DSLR Sensor are:

● High ISO Performance (like the Nikon D700) Useable ISO 12,800

Apparently the same sensor (which was designed in 2001-2002 and deployed since late 2002 in Kodak DCS-14n) could do in that camera only ISO 80-400(640 from other sources) for the full image and up to ISO 800 for less than full resolution. In the latter DCS Pro the max ISO was 1600 for RAW.
Of course the electronics inside that Kodak are crap by today standards and also the noise suppressing algorithms are also vastly improved. Yet I doubt a potential camera with today's technologies could do more than 2 stops better with the same sensor. So expect a clean ISO 800 and a messy ISO 3200 tops.

● Strong Resolving Power (able to capture great detail)

That sensor was different since had no AA filter so it's resolving power was great for that time. The backside of the coin is that moire must be processed (which is possible - see Leica M9).

● Excellent Color Reproduction

Well the problem is whether or not one prefers pleasant but not close to reality colors or more natural ones. Either way I think most contemporary cameras can do both via profiles.

● Video

Yes, if video for you means 567 x 378 @ 30 fps. No if it doesn't!

● LiveView

Again, yes if you want less resolution in LV than the current 3" VGA LCDs. No if you don't!

● At least 5 FPS

Well ... no!

Radu

ogl · 10-23-2009, 04:55 AM

Originally posted by Class A

Hmmh, earlier you wrote

So it seems you don't know after all?

To your credit you later on wrote

It appears you forgot to add a "I believe..." to your first statement.

Please, make correct quotes.

Full posts. Don't drag in quotations!!!

I said about DIFFERENT cameras. First - about FF, second - about APS-C.

Asahiflex · 10-23-2009, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by Erik

Almost everyone on this forum is an enthusiast with a few old lenses kicking around and we would all love to see the mechanical stop down coupling return, but in the eyes of the marketing department, that means nothing.

It's up to the marketing department to come up with new FF lenses with real added value. What about weather sealing and real ring-type USM motors. If Pentax is afraid for lower lens sales then why on earth do they advertise that the bodies are compatible with millions of lenses. A strange markting department if you ask me.

Hoya already made the K-7 possible; why shouldn't we expect a flagship camera (and only a flagship, not the lower models) with non-crippled mount? Like I said: this would sell like hotcakes and draw attention to the brand.

Angevinn · 10-23-2009, 06:50 AM

Hello Radu,

My first post was taken from a Chinese website. It's just speculation.

When I made my third post, I listed six things I would like to see in a sensor for a FF Pentax DSLR.

Namely:

● High ISO Performance (like the Nikon D700) Useable ISO 12,800
● Strong Resolving Power (able to capture great detail)
● Excellent Color Reproduction
● Video
● LiveView
● At least 5 FPS

I never stated that the Cypress sensor was capable of delivering these. I would really like to see a FF CMOS Samsung sensor (similar to what is in the K20D and K-7, just FF sized) in the FF Pentax DSLR. Samsung has really stayed ahead of the competition in CMOS sensor development.

Pentax and possibly Hoya do read these forums (I believe Ned even mentioned this in an interview). It's a sounding board for opinions and ideas that I believe helps them to build better products. That's why I listed six things I would like to see in a FF sensor. What sensor Hoya/Pentax will finally go with is anyone's guess. Others have stated they want a fully functional K-Mount. It may or may not happen but they are letting Hoya/Pentax know what they would like to see in a new flagship camera by stating it here.

If you have ideas about sensors or a possible FF DSLR from Pentax please share them.

Cheers,

AK

libbyh · 10-23-2009, 09:15 AM

I would love to see pentax come out with something FF in the size of the K20D - Sony has more or less already shown that it can be done.

The IQ of the K20D I think is still superior to most of what is available out there if you're willing to do a bit of PP. D300s almost looks like it's made a bit of a step backward in terms of detail in order to cope with the noise of video.

If Pentax introduces a 'budget' FF comparable to the A850, I think they'd find a lot of happy customers on their hands. lens availability might be a bit of a problem at first, but most will just stick their legacy glass on or use 3rd party solutions for the time being. I'd suspect they would make it work with crop lenses as well while they release some new designs - i don't see that it would cost them too much in terms of R&D either since they could adapt a lot of the legacy lens designs that are still revered.

emr · 10-23-2009, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by libbyh

I would love to see pentax come out with something FF in the size of the K20D - Sony has more or less already shown that it can be done.

Yes. Many posters seem to expect a direct correlation between sensor and camera body size, but I just saw a comparison between a medium format Leica S2 and FF Canon 1Ds mk III, and Leica's actually a bit smaller by volume and most measures.

Dnabors · 10-23-2009, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by Asahiflex

It's up to the marketing department to come up with new FF lenses with real added value. What about weather sealing and real ring-type USM motors. If Pentax is afraid for lower lens sales then why on earth do they advertise that the bodies are compatible with millions of lenses. A strange markting department if you ask me.

Hoya already made the K-7 possible; why shouldn't we expect a flagship camera (and only a flagship, not the lower models) with non-crippled mount? Like I said: this would sell like hotcakes and draw attention to the brand.

My sentiments exactly. When it was time for me to go digital, the fact that I could use all of the lenses I already owned was a huge reason for me to go with Pentax. That, and all of the good reviews the K10 was getting. Also, I think the bit about making a non-crippled mount on the flagship only makes perfect sense. And I still want new glass, too, but the fact that I could already have a variety of lenses at the ready was a big selling point.

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10-22-2009, 07:38 PM	#16
bunegg Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 82	woah~ another interesting piece of info

10-23-2009, 12:29 AM	#17
Zebooka Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Russia, Siberia, Novosibirsk Posts: 323	I would be glad to see Pentax FF camera in K10D/K20D body size. This will be awesome!

10-23-2009, 12:52 AM	#18
Erik Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Umeå, Sweden Posts: 755	Originally posted by Asahiflex I suspect the same. I can imagine the new FF camera being equipped with the good old pre-A diaphragm simulator, so that all K-mount lenses can be used. A camera like this will set like hot cakes, even though there are almost no new FF lenses for it available. This ain't going to happen, even though I would love it if it did. Remember that Pentax decided to cripple the K-mount even before its first DSLR came out -- it's going to stay crippled forever. Sorry.

10-23-2009, 12:55 AM	#19
Erik Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Umeå, Sweden Posts: 755	Originally posted by Angevinn How many DA lenses did Pentax launch their first DSLR, the *ist D with? I know this is a rhetorical question, but the answer is less than "not many", it is zero. It launched with one FA-J lens, which was not explicitely designed for digital.

10-23-2009, 12:59 AM	#20
eurostar Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Albareto, Italy Photos: Gallery Posts: 819	And the istD didn't sell enough, it was too late-too expensive, I wouldn't take it as an exaple of what is correct to do.

10-23-2009, 01:59 AM	#21
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	Originally posted by Erik This ain't going to happen, even though I would love it if it did. Remember that Pentax decided to cripple the K-mount even before its first DSLR came out -- it's going to stay crippled forever. Sorry. Why does Pentax have to stay married to the idea of a crippled K-mount? What makes a Pentax dSLR not be able to support auto stop-down metering of K and M lenses?

10-23-2009, 02:23 AM	#22
Erik Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Umeå, Sweden Posts: 755	Originally posted by Ash Why does Pentax have to stay married to the idea of a crippled K-mount? What makes a Pentax dSLR not be able to support auto stop-down metering of K and M lenses? There's no technical reason that it can not be done, but Pentax has not released a camera with a fully functional K-mount since 2001, and the entire market is moving away from mechanical parts in cameras as much as possible, so I really doubt Pentax will ever make a body more expensive just so it can fully support lenses from the 1970's -- and therefore cannibalize sales of new lenses. Almost everyone on this forum is an enthusiast with a few old lenses kicking around and we would all love to see the mechanical stop down coupling return, but in the eyes of the marketing department, that means nothing.

10-23-2009, 03:27 AM	#23
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by ogl It could be cool, this sensor was in Kodak FF camera. Hmmh, earlier you wrote Quote: 20-22 MP. The manufacturer - Kodak or Samsung. So it seems you don't know after all? To your credit you later on wrote Quote: The manufacturer - no info. Sony or Samsung. I've heard - not above 15 MP. It appears you forgot to add a "I believe..." to your first statement. Originally posted by Ash Why does Pentax have to stay married to the idea of a crippled K-mount? They could provide better support for old lenses right now through software, e.g., by letting the user dial in the f-ratio, matching it with the f-ratio set on the lens. A tiny bit of software but they don't do it. Sends a message to me.

10-23-2009, 04:29 AM	#24
RaduA Guest	The answers are in the very datasheet you included: Originally posted by Angevinn With all the rumors of possible sensor suppliers (Kodak, Samsung, Cypress and Hitachi) I wonder if Hoya/Pentax is shopping around to get the best possible price. By creating competition among the different sensor suppliers for price quotes, Hoya/Pentax is bound to get a good deal on the final sensor that will go into the new Pentax FF DSLR. Some things that are important to me in a future Pentax FF DSLR Sensor are: ● High ISO Performance (like the Nikon D700) Useable ISO 12,800 Apparently the same sensor (which was designed in 2001-2002 and deployed since late 2002 in Kodak DCS-14n) could do in that camera only ISO 80-400(640 from other sources) for the full image and up to ISO 800 for less than full resolution. In the latter DCS Pro the max ISO was 1600 for RAW. Of course the electronics inside that Kodak are crap by today standards and also the noise suppressing algorithms are also vastly improved. Yet I doubt a potential camera with today's technologies could do more than 2 stops better with the same sensor. So expect a clean ISO 800 and a messy ISO 3200 tops. ● Strong Resolving Power (able to capture great detail) That sensor was different since had no AA filter so it's resolving power was great for that time. The backside of the coin is that moire must be processed (which is possible - see Leica M9). ● Excellent Color Reproduction Well the problem is whether or not one prefers pleasant but not close to reality colors or more natural ones. Either way I think most contemporary cameras can do both via profiles. ● Video Yes, if video for you means 567 x 378 @ 30 fps. No if it doesn't! ● LiveView Again, yes if you want less resolution in LV than the current 3" VGA LCDs. No if you don't! ● At least 5 FPS Well ... no! Radu

10-23-2009, 04:55 AM	#25
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by Class A Hmmh, earlier you wrote So it seems you don't know after all? To your credit you later on wrote It appears you forgot to add a "I believe..." to your first statement. Please, make correct quotes. Full posts. Don't drag in quotations!!! I said about DIFFERENT cameras. First - about FF, second - about APS-C.

10-23-2009, 05:06 AM	#26
Asahiflex Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Netherlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,795	Originally posted by Erik Almost everyone on this forum is an enthusiast with a few old lenses kicking around and we would all love to see the mechanical stop down coupling return, but in the eyes of the marketing department, that means nothing. It's up to the marketing department to come up with new FF lenses with real added value. What about weather sealing and real ring-type USM motors. If Pentax is afraid for lower lens sales then why on earth do they advertise that the bodies are compatible with millions of lenses. A strange markting department if you ask me. Hoya already made the K-7 possible; why shouldn't we expect a flagship camera (and only a flagship, not the lower models) with non-crippled mount? Like I said: this would sell like hotcakes and draw attention to the brand.

10-23-2009, 06:50 AM	#27
Angevinn Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chicago, Ill. Posts: 204 Original Poster	Hello Radu, My first post was taken from a Chinese website. It's just speculation. When I made my third post, I listed six things I would like to see in a sensor for a FF Pentax DSLR. Namely: ● High ISO Performance (like the Nikon D700) Useable ISO 12,800 ● Strong Resolving Power (able to capture great detail) ● Excellent Color Reproduction ● Video ● LiveView ● At least 5 FPS I never stated that the Cypress sensor was capable of delivering these. I would really like to see a FF CMOS Samsung sensor (similar to what is in the K20D and K-7, just FF sized) in the FF Pentax DSLR. Samsung has really stayed ahead of the competition in CMOS sensor development. Pentax and possibly Hoya do read these forums (I believe Ned even mentioned this in an interview). It's a sounding board for opinions and ideas that I believe helps them to build better products. That's why I listed six things I would like to see in a FF sensor. What sensor Hoya/Pentax will finally go with is anyone's guess. Others have stated they want a fully functional K-Mount. It may or may not happen but they are letting Hoya/Pentax know what they would like to see in a new flagship camera by stating it here. If you have ideas about sensors or a possible FF DSLR from Pentax please share them. Cheers, AK

10-23-2009, 09:15 AM	#28
libbyh Inactive Account Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Rochester, NY Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 119	I would love to see pentax come out with something FF in the size of the K20D - Sony has more or less already shown that it can be done. The IQ of the K20D I think is still superior to most of what is available out there if you're willing to do a bit of PP. D300s almost looks like it's made a bit of a step backward in terms of detail in order to cope with the noise of video. If Pentax introduces a 'budget' FF comparable to the A850, I think they'd find a lot of happy customers on their hands. lens availability might be a bit of a problem at first, but most will just stick their legacy glass on or use 3rd party solutions for the time being. I'd suspect they would make it work with crop lenses as well while they release some new designs - i don't see that it would cost them too much in terms of R&D either since they could adapt a lot of the legacy lens designs that are still revered.

10-23-2009, 09:31 AM	#29
emr Guest	Originally posted by libbyh I would love to see pentax come out with something FF in the size of the K20D - Sony has more or less already shown that it can be done. Yes. Many posters seem to expect a direct correlation between sensor and camera body size, but I just saw a comparison between a medium format Leica S2 and FF Canon 1Ds mk III, and Leica's actually a bit smaller by volume and most measures.

10-23-2009, 10:57 AM	#30
Dnabors Inactive Account Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Jackson, MS Photos: Gallery Posts: 25	Originally posted by Asahiflex It's up to the marketing department to come up with new FF lenses with real added value. What about weather sealing and real ring-type USM motors. If Pentax is afraid for lower lens sales then why on earth do they advertise that the bodies are compatible with millions of lenses. A strange markting department if you ask me. Hoya already made the K-7 possible; why shouldn't we expect a flagship camera (and only a flagship, not the lower models) with non-crippled mount? Like I said: this would sell like hotcakes and draw attention to the brand. My sentiments exactly. When it was time for me to go digital, the fact that I could use all of the lenses I already owned was a huge reason for me to go with Pentax. That, and all of the good reviews the K10 was getting. Also, I think the bit about making a non-crippled mount on the flagship only makes perfect sense. And I still want new glass, too, but the fact that I could already have a variety of lenses at the ready was a big selling point.