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10-27-2009, 05:10 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
What hostilities? These things have little bearing on businesses, most of which are multinational.

TSST is a company 51% Toshiba and 49% Samsung making storage technology.
I doubt if tech going to japan (base tech not finished products) make them all that happy (either one). Business is business and pride is pride..
Flashpoint in Japanese-Korean Relations, UCLA Asia Institute
here is a large population of Koreans (now divided into North Korean and South Korean citizens) in Japan. In 1997, the number of Koreans living in Japan was estimated to be approximately 700,000 - mostly second- and third-generation Koreans who do not have Japanese citizenship, but whose native language is Japanese. Prejudice against Koreans still prevails today in Japanese government policies, as well as in the attitudes of many Japanese people. Koreans face difficulties in employment, obtaining passports, housing and marriage to Japanese.
...................
In South Korea antagonism towards Japan also runs high. Until recently the sale of Japanese cars was banned along with the public broadcast of Japanese music and culture. Japan and Korea fought a bitter campaign to host World Cup 2002 with each nation accusing the other of bribery and underhand tactics. FIFA sought to heal these wounds by awarding the tournament jointly to both countries in 1996, a decision derided by both parties at the time.

http://www.japanvisitor.com/index.php?cID=359
And as to Samsung itself...........
Samsung Electronics Co., which has emerged as a global giant in consumer electronics and has taken on and beaten Japanese rivals in places such as the United States and Europe, stopped selling consumer products in Japan in 2007, citing poor profitability.

Japan enjoys a huge trade surplus with South Korea - $32.7 billion in 2008, according to South Korean figures.

Hmmm not a lot of respect here.......
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/10/20/business-specialized-consumer-serv...a_7021322.html
Well things are getting better...........
Despite the slow progress on talks between the governments, early 2005 saw a number of joint ventures and possible takeovers occur, most of them focused on the high technology sector. One of the most noteworthy moves was Korea’s MagnaChip Semiconductor’s purchase of Japanese firm International System and Electronics Corp. (ISRON). This is the first time a Korean integrated circuit maker has taken over a Japanese display driver company. In addition, the LG-Philips LCD flat display manufacturing joint-venture announced that they will set up a further joint venture with Nippon Electric Glass (NEG), the world’s third largest LCD glass supplier, in the Paju Display cluster situated north of Seoul. Finally, with Korean distiller Jinro Ltd. for sale, Lotte Group partnered with Asahi Brewery of Japan in making a bid, while CJ Corp of Korea held talks with but ultimately did not partner with Kirin Brewery of Japan. The deadline for proposals was March 30, and a further round of bidding is expected.
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/0501qjapan_korea.pdf


Last edited by jeffkrol; 10-27-2009 at 05:45 PM.
10-27-2009, 05:31 PM   #32
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Don't underestimate tensions between Japan(ese) and Korea(ns), they have share a very painful history.
10-27-2009, 06:00 PM   #33
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The geek in me would love a venture between pentax and fuji. Fuji has done some really good stuff in the past (they had a p&s model that was amazing, and their S2 and S3 certainly had their niches) and given their history in the film industry, I think they understand what photographers are looking for. give me a pentax DSLR with a fuji sensor and a 'Velvia' curve preset, and I'm in heaven.
10-27-2009, 06:39 PM   #34
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Back in the day, a few years ago

Back in the day, a few years ago the local talk was Samsung would buy Pentax Corp. This was way back when there was both a Pentax USA Rep and a Samsung Rep in local marketplace. It was said back then that Samsung was already manufacturing Pentax dslrs for Pentax, but designed by Pentax and built by Samsung. If true then Hoya needs someone other than Samsung to manufacture their Pentax Logo'd Dslrs cause I think Samsung is dropping Pentax and Hoya. So Hoya needs a sensor maker, & a camera manufacturer who remains silent and subbordinate to Hoya, you know to replace Samsung as it stands today.

Later it was pointed out to me why Samsung of Korea would never be allowed to purchase Pentax of Japan or any company in Japan. I always found this amusing as Pentax was already outsourcing their production lines to VietNam and Philippines and China. I wonder just how "Japanese" Pentax Corp is thesedays? The blub on Bloomberg concerning Hoyas losses with pentax dslrs has confirmed Hoya closed the last pentax camera and lens plant in Japan in 2008. Pentax Logo of Japan is a popular myth. Only designed in Japan and thats it.

Cross off Samsung of Korea as a potenial buyer, been there done that, so who else wants to deal with Hoya Corporation and their not yet profitable Pentax Dslr Cameras Division?




QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
I doubt if tech going to japan (base tech not finished products) make them all that happy (either one). Business is business and pride is pride..
Flashpoint in Japanese-Korean Relations, UCLA Asia Institute
here is a large population of Koreans (now divided into North Korean and South Korean citizens) in Japan. In 1997, the number of Koreans living in Japan was estimated to be approximately 700,000 - mostly second- and third-generation Koreans who do not have Japanese citizenship, but whose native language is Japanese. Prejudice against Koreans still prevails today in Japanese government policies, as well as in the attitudes of many Japanese people. Koreans face difficulties in employment, obtaining passports, housing and marriage to Japanese.
...................
In South Korea antagonism towards Japan also runs high. Until recently the sale of Japanese cars was banned along with the public broadcast of Japanese music and culture. Japan and Korea fought a bitter campaign to host World Cup 2002 with each nation accusing the other of bribery and underhand tactics. FIFA sought to heal these wounds by awarding the tournament jointly to both countries in 1996, a decision derided by both parties at the time.

Japan-Korea Relations :: Japan Visitor
And as to Samsung itself...........
Samsung Electronics Co., which has emerged as a global giant in consumer electronics and has taken on and beaten Japanese rivals in places such as the United States and Europe, stopped selling consumer products in Japan in 2007, citing poor profitability.

Japan enjoys a huge trade surplus with South Korea - $32.7 billion in 2008, according to South Korean figures.

Hmmm not a lot of respect here.......
Toyota pushes into SKorea, home turf of Hyundai - Forbes.com
Well things are getting better...........
Despite the slow progress on talks between the governments, early 2005 saw a number of joint ventures and possible takeovers occur, most of them focused on the high technology sector. One of the most noteworthy moves was Korea’s MagnaChip Semiconductor’s purchase of Japanese firm International System and Electronics Corp. (ISRON). This is the first time a Korean integrated circuit maker has taken over a Japanese display driver company. In addition, the LG-Philips LCD flat display manufacturing joint-venture announced that they will set up a further joint venture with Nippon Electric Glass (NEG), the world’s third largest LCD glass supplier, in the Paju Display cluster situated north of Seoul. Finally, with Korean distiller Jinro Ltd. for sale, Lotte Group partnered with Asahi Brewery of Japan in making a bid, while CJ Corp of Korea held talks with but ultimately did not partner with Kirin Brewery of Japan. The deadline for proposals was March 30, and a further round of bidding is expected.
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/0501qjapan_korea.pdf



Last edited by Samsungian; 10-27-2009 at 06:55 PM.
10-27-2009, 07:21 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
This was way back when there was both a Pentax USA Rep and a Samsung Rep in local marketplace. It was said back then that Samsung was already manufacturing Pentax dslrs for Pentax, but designed by Pentax and built by Samsung.
Pentax DSLRs (and afaik "Samsung" DSLRs as well) are made in their own factory, in Philippines.
Samsung is known to lie, from time to time. Like, denying Pentax had anything to do with those "Schneider-Kreuznach" lenses (designed by Pentax and assembled in Vietnam)
10-28-2009, 04:41 AM   #36
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Samsung has never made a DSLR nor lenses on it's own but has got Pentax to manufacture all of their models and re-branded them, for the lenses Samsung paid a license fee to use the Schneider-Kreuznach name on what are essentially Pentax made lenses. Much like Panasonic cameras with the Leica boldly emblazoned on them. Many might not even give a Samsung branded lens a second or third look... but put on a German name and somehow it's worth considering... So how people can get the mistaken idea that Samsung is a key camera or lens maker is beyond me.
10-28-2009, 06:31 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Back in the day, a few years ago the local talk was Samsung would buy Pentax Corp.

That was talk by the utterly ignorant. It has never been a even remote posibility.....
10-28-2009, 06:59 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by kevinschoenmakers Quote
Don't underestimate tensions between Japan(ese) and Korea(ns), they have share a very painful history.
So do Poland and Germany but that does not stop them doing business. Germany is one of the biggest investors in Poland and Poles are more than happy to work for German companies if it means a decent secure job.

There are US firms operating in Russia and China as well despite all the ongoing tensions.

Japan and Korea are already involved in a number of joint ventures, as are Japan and China who also share a somewhat chequered relationship. Hoya have several factories in China apparently. Why would Vietnam or the Philippines particularly like the Japanese? Well, because they build so many factories there I would guess.

I dont think Hoya would have the slightest problem working with Samsung if they could reach a mutually agreeable arrangement. If Sony are happy to outsource TFT production to Samsung and Toshiba are happy to organise joint ventures, then why not?

At the end of the day, its politicians not business owners that block such moves. Protectionism is a common issue with politicians all over the world,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2005/jul/27/china.oilandpetrol

but I dont think a partnership would attract this level of attention - with Toyota trying to expand into the Korean market, it may even be seen as a sweetener.


Last edited by *isteve; 10-28-2009 at 07:07 AM.
10-28-2009, 07:10 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
So do Poland and Germany but that does not stop them doing business. Germany is one of the biggest investors in Poland and Poles are more than happy to work for German companies if it means a decent secure job.

There are US firms operating in Russia and China as well despite all the ongoing tensions.

Japan and Korea are already involved in a number of joint ventures, as are Japan and China who also share a somewhat chequered relationship. Hoya have several factories in China apparently.

I dont think Hoya would have the slightest problem working with Samsung if they could reach a mutually agreeable arrangement. If Sony are happy to outsource TFT production to Samsung and Toshiba are happy to organise joint ventures, then why not?
Pentax being Japan's oldest camera company (and most likely a national treasure of sorts) it would be highly unlikely to go to Samsung without shame.... I underestimated even Hoya who I assumed would act as a Western business and shutter Pentax camera almost immediately after the purchase. I was wrong.
Work together yes. Own no.......
10-28-2009, 08:54 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Pentax being Japan's oldest camera company (and most likely a national treasure of sorts) it would be highly unlikely to go to Samsung without shame.... I underestimated even Hoya who I assumed would act as a Western business and shutter Pentax camera almost immediately after the purchase. I was wrong.
Work together yes. Own no.......
Many old Japanese companies have disappeared, including Pentax. It no longer exists. You seem to think this emotional stuff has relevance in business. It really doesnt.

If you want shame, General Motors is now owned by a Canadian parts supplier, Jaguar was owned by Ford, Bently is owned by VW and Mini's are built by BMW. That is shame.

Hoya are acting as a western business. They acquired one of their major competitors and they turned around the loss making division by severe cost cutting. Sounds pretty western to me.

Are you mistaking western business practice for US/UK style financial practice?

The insistance on closing down loss making segments was something Pentax's previous shareholders were attempting - Sparx Asset Management. Now that's western style shareholder pressure from an institutional shareholder. Buy, strip and sell at a profit. Thats what you get when you go cap in hand to a loan shark. They had to go there because they had made such a dog's dinner of their financial situation.

They cannot sell off the camera division without giving up a lot of patents which are probably vital to the medical and other businesses. Who would want Pentax without them? Hoya are stuck with Pentax cameras for the foreseeable future, but want a partner to make them viable in the long term, even if that partner has a joint shareholding.

No-one is talking about selling Pentax to Samsung. People are talking about partnerships. Samsung have a huge amount to offer as an electronics firm, more possibly than Sony or Panasonic.

Nikon-Sony, Oly-Panasonic, Pentax-Samsung. There is nothing odd about any of these and I dont understand what people are getting so excited about. Its business as usual. Only Canon and Sony are self-sufficient in sensors AND optics.

The one I think is most vulnerable is Oly-Panasonic. I dont think Panasonic have much to gain from the relationship and may be looking for other partners or even decide to go it alone. The success of the micro 4/3 mount is key to that decision. Clearly they have not used Oly patents (sensor AS) or allowed Oly access to their contrast control AF system, so this is a very hands off partnership.

Nikon-Sony is an interesting one. Sony benefit a lot from the Nikon design expertise and R&D funding in sensors, which they use themselves (eventually). Nikon also provide the majority of the market for Sony sensors. Would that change if Sony's DSLR market share increased?
10-28-2009, 09:12 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Well this should shut up a few noisy doomsayers...

I dont know whether well go with Samsung or somebody else, but I can say that well have a deeper relationship with some electronics guys, Hamada said. There will be consolidation in the camera business and a small player like us will be like a small boat on a rough sea. But let me be clear: we will not shut down this business.

Fair enough!

This is a nice business statement which is better than saying nothing if you assume Hoya does what it says. Good business managers choose their words carefully to avoid accusations and law suites later.

But is there really much of a difference between Hoya shutting down the Pentax camera division when compared to selling the whole operation and brand name to recover some of their investment (due to continuous declining sales) and the new owner then later shutting down the business after their turn around attempt also fails? The net result is the same. But by selling first, Hoya did not shut down the business - as they promised.

I think it is best to use common sense judgement and look at the performance of the camera division and quality or problems of the products rather than looking to business speak promises.
10-28-2009, 09:20 AM   #42
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This is going to be slightly off-topic...

QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
---
I was simply replying on your 'what hostilities'. Because they do exist. All other things being equal I bet Korean managers rather do business with, say, an Indonesian company than with a Japanese company.

Also, Korea and Japan are not comparable to Germany and Poland. Japan occupied Korea for 40 years. Japan was never punished in ways Germany was. Japan never said sorry. Korea suffered horrible things indirectly (but in the minds of Koreans directly) caused by the Japanese occupation: Civil war, division, decades of tension. In fact, the popular saying in Korea is that the quickest way to reunify the country is if Japan attacked.
10-28-2009, 09:28 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Samsung have a huge amount to offer as an electronics firm, more possibly than Sony or Panasonic.
I agree, and I hope the Pentax - Samsung relationship continues.

FWIW, I think Samsung also needs Pentax as a sensor buyer, to help distribute the cost of making/developping the sensors for the NX series.
10-28-2009, 12:06 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by cyg Quote
To be fair, we only get short excerpts from the actual discussion/interview. It could very well be that he was replying to a question from the journalist which specifically mentioned Samsung (a natural question given the previous ties).

I'm not saying that's exactly what did or did not happen -- just that one should not read too much into one sentence lifted from a much longer interview...
A very perceptive comment. You're absolutely right - we don't know the context. I still believe he's saying, "don't assume Samsung," but we can't know for sure.

Jer
10-28-2009, 07:53 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Well this should shut up a few noisy doomsayers...

I dont know whether well go with Samsung or somebody else, but I can say that well have a deeper relationship with some electronics guys, Hamada said. There will be consolidation in the camera business and a small player like us will be like a small boat on a rough sea. But let me be clear: we will not shut down this business.

Fair enough!
Let's hope that's an accurate statement.

It could also be like the frequently heard quote from an NFL coach - "[Fill in the blank] is my quarterback" - generally heard a week or two prior to benching/replacing [fill in the blank].

Let's hope not.

I don't honestly believe they're ready to throw in the towel just yet, but they definitely do need a partner on the electronics side, since that isn't their historical area of expertise.
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