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11-10-2009, 02:02 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
But let's not hold our breath while we're waiting
Clearly, Samsung having that good of a track record

11-10-2009, 06:22 AM   #32
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If it happens in a reasonable time, it will be because Samsung's sensor department sold it to Pentax. If they have to personally design a camera from the ground up, along with a lens system, I would say 2011 is likely.

I don't understand the focus on shrinking the size of full frame cameras. Is it not true that because of the lack of the crop factor, photographers will tend to use bigger lenses? The smaller your camera, the tougher it is to balance a long lens -- even a 70-200 f2.8 needs quite a bit of weight to give good balancing. I certainly wouldn't want to shoot with one of those on a K2000 or Kx body.
11-10-2009, 08:10 AM   #33
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With a 80-200/2.8 lens and a big camera theres a chance you won't bother carrying it of lift it. Todays FF camera are gigantic; they are the size of compact medium format film cameras.
I never understood the concept of balancing cameras; I've never balanced a camera in my life. Those who do have not learned the simple task of holding a camera correctly.
11-10-2009, 12:13 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
Again, I don't give Samsung credit for being that smart.
And, as if to prove the point, Samsung releases a new mobile OS. Because people were obviously fed up with iPhone, Android, Blackberry, Palm and Symbian. There's no method to this madness. Also see "developing your own lens mount when you have no experience making lens".

11-10-2009, 12:29 PM   #35
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For what i know, coming out with a completely new FF camera w/o optical viewfinder AND keeping the same registration distance as Pentax system makes totally no sense.

Having it available via adapter would make sense, but otherwise a lot of other system glass would not be available for such a new system.

Shorter registration distance would be logical solution.
11-10-2009, 01:28 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
With a 80-200/2.8 lens and a big camera theres a chance you won't bother carrying it of lift it. Todays FF camera are gigantic; they are the size of compact medium format film cameras.
I never understood the concept of balancing cameras; I've never balanced a camera in my life. Those who do have not learned the simple task of holding a camera correctly.
Sure, people with different needs or preferences are just ignorant... poor them. :ugh:
11-10-2009, 07:05 PM   #37
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But the same registration distance would not be good for some lenses?

Example Super Wide Angle with retrofocus design, telecentric lenses, etc...

Maybe it will be a professional system and I don´t think a small (M4/3 style) system be good for that.
11-11-2009, 12:24 AM   #38
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Retrofocus design is a way to overcome the need for the space to put a mirror. Non-retrofocus wideangles can be better and of shorter focal lenght.

11-11-2009, 02:29 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
You are wrong.
No, you are wrong.
Remember we are talking about a fully electronic mount now.

QuoteQuote:
If there is no mechanical coupling to the diaphragm lever of a K-mount lens, then it's always stopped down to the value that's on the diaphragm ring (in older K-mount lenses) or the smallest f/stop (in the case of the newer lenses such as the DA's).
That is because there is a mechanical connection to the stop down lever in the lens. Just look at the back of any K-mount lens including the modern DA's. It has a mechanical lever at the right of the lens mount. When you move this lever, the lens stops down. It is the camera that mechanically moves this lever, it is featured even in the DA lenses. Without this lever, the lens can't stop down at all. It has nothing to do with aperture ring or not.

In a fully electronic mount, this lever is removed on the lenses for this new mount and the connection in the camera for this mount is also removed. Because this lever is mechanical. A fully electronic mount has no mechanical levers, it is fully done in electronics so there is no need for this mechanical connection.

The aperture is then fully controlled by electronic circuits with no mechanics involved in the communication between the camera and the lens. This also means that the older lenses will not work on a fully electronic K-mount - without an adapter.
11-11-2009, 02:48 AM   #40
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Roland, it seems you are wrong here.
By itself, a lens without aperture ring (or with an aperture ring set to 'A') would be fully stopped down. Please, take an un-mounted lens and see for yourself. You have to move the lens lever to open the aperture, not to close it.
The camera's lever actually keeps the lens aperture open (except during exposure and DOF preview).
11-11-2009, 03:09 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
No, you are wrong.
Remember we are talking about a fully electronic mount now.

That is because there is a mechanical connection to the stop down lever in the lens. Just look at the back of any K-mount lens including the modern DA's. It has a mechanical lever at the right of the lens mount. When you move this lever, the lens stops down. It is the camera that mechanically moves this lever, it is featured even in the DA lenses. Without this lever, the lens can't stop down at all. It has nothing to do with aperture ring or not.

In a fully electronic mount, this lever is removed on the lenses for this new mount and the connection in the camera for this mount is also removed. Because this lever is mechanical. A fully electronic mount has no mechanical levers, it is fully done in electronics so there is no need for this mechanical connection.

The aperture is then fully controlled by electronic circuits with no mechanics involved in the communication between the camera and the lens. This also means that the older lenses will not work on a fully electronic K-mount - without an adapter.
Roland, I still think you are wrong. When a mechanical K-mount lens is not mounted to a camera, then the normal state of the lens is that the diaphragm is always closed to the value which you have selected on the diaphragm ring. The aperture is spring-loaded and always closed. The lever is meant to open the diaphragm. Now, when the K-mount lens is mounted to a camera then the lever will be engaged to keep it fully open (for the open-aperture metering). When a photo is taken then the lever will be released, the lens closes down to the selected f/stop, and then the lever will be engaged again to open it. So, the lever is only used to open the diaphragm, it's not stopping it down!

There's proof enough to see that I'm right. Even Bojidar Dimitrov states about the K-mount (source: http://kmp.bdimitrov.de/technology/K-mount/K.html):

"Automatic-aperture lenses operate in exactly the same manner, but they feature an additional diaphragm actuator lever. Pushing this lever causes the diaphragm to open up fully; releasing it allows the diaphragm to close to the selected f-stop. When fully pushed, this lever has the same absolute position for all lenses regardless of their widest aperture. Notable is that the displacement of the actuator is proportionate to the diameter of the diaphragm opening (thus the displacement between f/2.8 and f/4 is bigger than the displacement between f/16 and f/22)."

M42 lenses with the auto-pin work the other way round: on the A setting the lens is always open, only after the pin is pressed the diaphragm will close.

To conclude my story: one should always prefer the usage of old manual lenses on newer fully electronic bodies (without mechanical coupling to the body, Pentax does not have this yet) because you can then choose the diaphragm on the diaphragm ring and the lens will always be stopped down to the selected f/stop. There's no communication or mechanical coupling needed at all. Put the camera in Av mode and you can perfectly shoot with such a combination. I know, as I used some K-mount lenses on my Canon 5D this way.

(Also, the above explains why I *really* hate to use M and K type lenses on my digital bodies as these require an extra step to meter. Push a button, the diaphragm closes and the camera will take a meter reading. This is needed as the K-mount by design always opens the diaphragm to the widest f/stop, so using the Av mode is out of the question unless you plan to always shoot wide open. Because of this, I prefer using M42 lenses because these can be used stopped down all the time. I don't want to alter my K-mount lenses, but for me it would have been perfect if there was no aperture lever at all. Remove it and the K and M lenses will instantly get much more usable on digital Pentax bodies).

Edit: damn, Kunzite was first
11-11-2009, 03:48 AM   #42
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QuoteQuote:

To conclude my story: one should always prefer the usage of old manual lenses on newer fully electronic bodies (without mechanical coupling to the body, Pentax does not have this yet) because you can then choose the diaphragm on the diaphragm ring and the lens will always be stopped down to the selected f/stop. There's no communication or mechanical coupling needed at all. Put the camera in Av mode and you can perfectly shoot with such a combination. I know, as I used some K-mount lenses on my Canon 5D this way.

(Also, the above explains why I *really* hate to use M and K type lenses on my digital bodies as these require an extra step to meter. Push a button, the diaphragm closes and the camera will take a meter reading. This is needed as the K-mount by design always opens the diaphragm to the widest f/stop, so using the Av mode is out of the question unless you plan to always shoot wide open. Because of this, I prefer using M42 lenses because these can be used stopped down all the time. I don't want to alter my K-mount lenses, but for me it would have been perfect if there was no aperture lever at all. Remove it and the K and M lenses will instantly get much more usable on digital Pentax bodies).

Edit: damn, Kunzite was first

Personally I find the 'press button to meter' when using M/K/A lensenses on the digital bodies extroadinarily convenient. In pure manual mode it doesn't make much difference and in AV mode I tend not to like the continuous metering and hence the 'press to meter' for these old lenses is directly equivalent to the 'press to lock AE' I would do with a modern lens. I'm absolutely delighted in how these old lenses work on the digital bodies.

If I interpret correctly the way you would like them to work it would mean they were permanently stopped down all the time they were on the camera. That certainly isnn't how I would prefer them to work as looking through dim murky viewfinders trying to compose and focus is definitely not where I want to be - it would be a massive retrograde step. If I was unkind I would call it crippling a lens.
11-11-2009, 04:01 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by gwing Quote
Personally I find the 'press button to meter' when using M/K/A lensenses on the digital bodies extroadinarily convenient. In pure manual mode it doesn't make much difference and in AV mode I tend not to like the continuous metering and hence the 'press to meter' for these old lenses is directly equivalent to the 'press to lock AE' I would do with a modern lens. I'm absolutely delighted in how these old lenses work on the digital bodies.

If I interpret correctly the way you would like them to work it would mean they were permanently stopped down all the time they were on the camera. That certainly isnn't how I would prefer them to work as looking through dim murky viewfinders trying to compose and focus is definitely not where I want to be - it would be a massive retrograde step. If I was unkind I would call it crippling a lens.
I think it comes down to personal preferences. I usually don't go past f/8 and up to that f/stop (and in normal light conditions) the viewfinder is still perfectly usable. I also like that in Av mode I don't have to press an additional button other than the shutter button.

Interestingly, in Live View mode on my K-7 the extra button is still needed for metering M and K lenses. But especially in Live View mode the metering stopped down is near perfect, so I don't know why the extra button is still needed (the LCD screen does not darken when the lens is stopped down).
11-11-2009, 04:17 AM   #44
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Mirrorless.. They should have adjusted the sensor distance... I want to use some RF lenses with it.
11-12-2009, 12:13 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
With a 80-200/2.8 lens and a big camera theres a chance you won't bother carrying it of lift it. Todays FF camera are gigantic; they are the size of compact medium format film cameras.
I never understood the concept of balancing cameras; I've never balanced a camera in my life. Those who do have not learned the simple task of holding a camera correctly.
D700 is OKish I'd say but that's the only one so far. Of course it's based on D300 and D300 is huge for an APS-C...
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