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01-13-2010, 08:47 PM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Thanks for the link. I'm not sure I'd call the RAW images from the K-7 better than the JPEG images. In the past dpreview gave a camera credit when it retained detail despite showing more noise. I wonder why the K-7 RAW images look as mushy as the competition. Must be the RAW converter applying some heavy handed noise reduction. Whether the JPEG images by the K-7 really have more detail or just look as if they had more detail, I just don't like the clean but washy look of the heavily noise reduced images of the competition.
FWIW, the K-7 will apply some RAW NR starting at ISO 3200 - this cannot be disabled.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I've read a review of the Canon 7D where the users where rather deeply disappointed with the IQ.

Could it be that the images by this camera measure better than they look?
On the "other" forum, GordonBGood had some interesting findings regarding the 7D recently:

"Revisiting the Canon 7D review as to raw noise comparisons only leads to one "aha" that can't be explained as above: Why is the noise performance of the Canon 7D so much better than that of the Canon 50D right across the ISO range? In order to get this kind of improvement, the 18 MP 7D would have to have almost twice as many maximum electrons in the electron well as does the 15 MP 50D, and while Canon has reworked the layout of the new sensor to improve this, they haven't been that effective. At this point I refer you to the results of my work above, that the 7D has unequal alternating green photosites and the news from a few months ago that many raw converters were being updated to support cameras that had such unequal greens, including ACR!
[...]
This also explains the slight softening in appearance of the ACR produced noise gray patches of the 7D as compared to the 50D; when processed identically they have an almost identical appearance. The softening is due to the effective averaging between adjacent green photosites that takes place in demosiacing in order to avoid maze patterns due to the unequal adjacent rows, which reduces noise by about 30% just as having about double the maximum effective electron well capacity would.

I hope some of you find this interesting. I would post this in the Canon Forum but can't be bothered defending it against Canon fanboys. In fact, this doesn't really detract from the Canon 7D's use in any practical sense anyway, it just means that the superior raw noise results from the DPR Canon 7D review aren't real. In fact, I was looking for signs of chroma noise reduction in the K-x and discovered this."

In case you are interested in following this in more detail, here is the link to the post:

Re: 7D raw noise filtering unlikely reply (Conclusion)...: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

01-13-2010, 09:28 PM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
Not my experience; at least not when using Velvia 50 (which admittedly is not 100ISO). My real world test is landscape. Not a single digital camera, including 22mp MF backs are able resolve grass in landscape image. It comes through as fuzzy candyfloss. The K-7 certainly is unable although it can create sharper images with better accutance than 35mm film.
With digital cameras, much depends on the RAW conversion. Some programs are better than others at showing the kind of detail that you seek.

Rob
01-14-2010, 12:24 AM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by photogerald Quote
FWIW, the K-7 will apply some RAW NR starting at ISO 3200 - this cannot be disabled.
Cannot be that much, judging from the noise in the JPEGs (this assumes that RAW NR is always done, independently of whether you shoot RAW or JPEG).


QuoteOriginally posted by photogerald Quote
On the "other" forum, GordonBGood had some interesting findings regarding the 7D recently:
Very interesting indeed. Thanks for the link!
02-01-2010, 12:14 PM   #139
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Does anyone think Pentax reads these threads. It seems there are a lot of good ideas on this forum. I really hope they do, because I want to upgrade, but I'm not sold on the K-7. Here's what I'd like to see in the K-7 successor in order of importance from greatest to least:

1). Sensor noise profile similar to the K-x. Really, pentax could just drop in the K-x sensor into the K-7 and I'd have my wallet out, but if they could do it at 14-15 MP, holy cow!

2). More reliable AF performance (and especially in low light/contrast situations)

3). Faster continuous shooting (somewhere between 5-8 FPS)

4). Better in-body image stabilization (What Pentax has now is a joke compared to Sony)!

5). offer a split-prism screen already. What's the logic of backwards lens compatibily without it? I would love to be able to by a $50-$60 OEM screen from Pentax rather than a $150 screen from Katz-Eye!!!

6). tilt/swivel LCD (although this is just a cherry, and I would be fine without).

7). PS - I couldn't care less about FF. There are benefits and drawbacks. IMHO Pentax needs to fix the stuff I mention above first!


What do the rest of you think? Agree/disagree?

Cheers,

Jon

02-01-2010, 01:05 PM   #140
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I agree with most of that; it's the autofocus speed, the lowlight autofocus speed and the continuous autofocus (with a high percentage of in-focus shos) that I want to see in the next model.

On the subject of high percentage in-focus shots, I'd much prefer 5fps shooting with an 80% success rate than 8fps with a 50% success rate if you know what I mean?

The sensor I'm happy with, I never go above ISO 1600 personally so it doesn't bother me that much considering the K7 is on par with the D300 and 7D in terms of RAW noise up to around ISO 1600.
02-01-2010, 01:25 PM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by jon.partsch Quote
Does anyone think Pentax reads these threads.
It does seem that in some ways, they do, though we can't always have what we want for what we want when we want from anyone, anyway. There is of course a lot of noise which might confuse the issue of who really wants what and who's just trying to do viral anti-marketing or something.


QuoteQuote:
5). offer a split-prism screen already. What's the logic of backwards lens compatibily without it? I would love to be able to by a $50-$60 OEM screen from Pentax rather than a $150 screen from Katz-Eye!!!
I still proffer my idea of the 'Ratzeye' screen: one made for the faster lenses with a matte spot in the middle for fine focus/visual af confirmation/good spot metering, and a ring of microprism-for-fast-lenses around it for assisted MF.




QuoteQuote:
6). tilt/swivel LCD (although this is just a cherry, and I would be fine without).

People clamoring for this dubiously-useful novelty (Yeah, there'll be cries about that from those who really like em, but if you really like em, how about a purpose-made accessory you could plug in? ) ...in a weathersealed camera they expect to be smaller, lighter, and under the usual price curve when Pentaxians who'll shell out actually tend to be among the last purists... I dunno, there. I'd rather get my eye closer to the finder I'm carrying an SLR for and make the LCD as good for the inevitable chimping as possible.
02-08-2010, 06:54 PM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
People clamoring for this dubiously-useful novelty (Yeah, there'll be cries about that from those who really like em, but if you really like em, how about a purpose-made accessory you could plug in? ) ...in a weathersealed camera they expect to be smaller, lighter, and under the usual price curve when Pentaxians who'll shell out actually tend to be among the last purists... I dunno, there. I'd rather get my eye closer to the finder I'm carrying an SLR for and make the LCD as good for the inevitable chimping as possible.
A tilt-swivel LCD would be useful for video mode but IMO not as important for stills.

Rob
02-08-2010, 07:01 PM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobG Quote
A tilt-swivel LCD would be useful for video mode but IMO not as important for stills.

Rob
You can always use the Flipbac Angle Viewfinder And LCD Screen Protector to achieve swivel LCD. You can find it at amazon for $20
Amazon.com: Flipbac Angle Viewfinder And LCD Screen Protector (Silver) For The Pentax K-7, V20, V10, T30, T20 Digital Cameras: Electronics

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02-10-2010, 03:54 AM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
I know it has been a while since I discussed what Pentax may or may not come out with in the relatively near future. One of the reasons I did not upgrade to the K7, has nothing to do with the merits of it, but more to do with what I do have. As I own 3 x K20D's and a few K10D's, I haven't felt the need to upgrade as yet. I don't feel that the attributes of the K7 are sufficient for me to abandon the K20D, as the output is on par with the K7.

However, if and when Pentax come out with a camera that can give me a few more mega pixels with good noise performance, I will consider upgrading. I have a large arsenal of exceptional Pentax lenses and am very well covered in that area.

So here goes my speculation. The next APS-C format Pentax camera will have around 18.2-19.2 mega-pixels and will have similar output attributes as the K20D-K7. As I generally work within the 100-400 iso range, I suspect that the output will be outstanding and will compete quite handily with the Nikon, Canon and Sony counterparts. It is at that time that I will upgrade.

I also would suggest that the next FF Pentax coming out will be a 24-25 megapixel camera, that will come in at 1999,00 ;-) Sometime in 2nd to 3rd quarter of 2010.

Well, there you have it in a nutshell. Oh, and I suspect that we might see the new upgrade in the late Spring to early Summer of 2010.

Ben
Well, I fully endorse your thoughts about the K20D, its a good camera and I also would not up-grade to the K7. I certainly hope your speculation is correct about a Full Frame body with a decent pixel count, Pentax needs that 'shot-in-the arm' to overtake the likes of Sony at least here's hoping.
02-10-2010, 03:59 AM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by jon.partsch Quote
Does anyone think Pentax reads these threads. It seems there are a lot of good ideas on this forum. I really hope they do, because I want to upgrade, but I'm not sold on the K-7. Here's what I'd like to see in the K-7 successor in order of importance from greatest to least:

1). Sensor noise profile similar to the K-x. Really, pentax could just drop in the K-x sensor into the K-7 and I'd have my wallet out, but if they could do it at 14-15 MP, holy cow!

2). More reliable AF performance (and especially in low light/contrast situations)

3). Faster continuous shooting (somewhere between 5-8 FPS)

4). Better in-body image stabilization (What Pentax has now is a joke compared to Sony)!

5). offer a split-prism screen already. What's the logic of backwards lens compatibily without it? I would love to be able to by a $50-$60 OEM screen from Pentax rather than a $150 screen from Katz-Eye!!!

6). tilt/swivel LCD (although this is just a cherry, and I would be fine without).

7). PS - I couldn't care less about FF. There are benefits and drawbacks. IMHO Pentax needs to fix the stuff I mention above first!


What do the rest of you think? Agree/disagree?



Cheers,

Jon
I totally agree with all your sentiments, but a full frame and greater pixel count would be handy.
I do not think Pentax read this forum, they are not interested in what the punters think who buy and use their equipment, they are a law unto their selves.
02-15-2010, 03:41 PM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
99% of all images are shot at "normal" ISO values. The obsession with noise performance at extreme ISO is just measurebating by people never shooting anything in real life. They are the same people that complain about fps and AF speed in spite of never shooting action. The 1% that do need low noise at high ISO will have me excused (and buy a D700 for niche usage)
99% of everything you just wrote was made up on the spot and does not line up with the real life shooting scenarios of 2010. The introduction of a relatively noiseless ISO 1600 was a game changer for every event photographer on the planet from soccer moms to high end wedding and sports shooters. Just because you don't see any value in the features that others are clamoring for doesn't mean it's not critical to their work flow. On the rare occasion that I shoot at "normal" iso values these days it's because I've added enough light to get away with it.

Most of the action shooters I know are tracking their fast moving offspring with a point and shoot and a pop-up flash. Just about everything they shoot is at ISO 1600, whether they know it or not. I think the stats on folks that need low noise at high iso is higher than your imagined 1%.
02-15-2010, 03:55 PM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by jon.partsch Quote
Does anyone think Pentax reads these threads. It seems there are a lot of good ideas on this forum. I really hope they do, because I want to upgrade, but I'm not sold on the K-7. Here's what I'd like to see in the K-7 successor in order of importance from greatest to least:

1). Sensor noise profile similar to the K-x. Really, pentax could just drop in the K-x sensor into the K-7 and I'd have my wallet out, but if they could do it at 14-15 MP, holy cow!
That might work, as long as the sensor photocells are kept within a certain limit; if too small ... big trouble. And, the noise issue is well documented and summarized as such: well taken care of and easily in any PP software.
2). More reliable AF performance (and especially in low light/contrast situations)
I find the AF quite reliable on my K7, how about on yours?
3). Faster continuous shooting (somewhere between 5-8 FPS)
5.2 isn't enough?
4). Better in-body image stabilization (What Pentax has now is a joke compared to Sony)!
How is that? Can you provide with some reliable proofs and/or serious testing?
5). offer a split-prism screen already. What's the logic of backwards lens compatibily without it? I would love to be able to by a $50-$60 OEM screen from Pentax rather than a $150 screen from Katz-Eye!!!

6). tilt/swivel LCD (although this is just a cherry, and I would be fine without).
Good point.
7). PS - I couldn't care less about FF. There are benefits and drawbacks. IMHO Pentax needs to fix the stuff I mention above first!


What do the rest of you think? Agree/disagree?
I ran out of answers for the remainder of your questions, but I want to add that the K7 is a great camera, maybe not so for those who don't have it.
Cheers,

Jon
Cheers.

JP

Last edited by jpzk; 02-15-2010 at 03:59 PM. Reason: added info
02-15-2010, 11:44 PM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Quote
99% of everything you just wrote was made up on the spot and does not line up with the real life shooting scenarios of 2010. The introduction of a relatively noiseless ISO 1600 was a game changer for every event photographer on the planet from soccer moms to high end wedding and sports shooters. Just because you don't see any value in the features that others are clamoring for doesn't mean it's not critical to their work flow. On the rare occasion that I shoot at "normal" iso values these days it's because I've added enough light to get away with it.

Most of the action shooters I know are tracking their fast moving offspring with a point and shoot and a pop-up flash. Just about everything they shoot is at ISO 1600, whether they know it or not. I think the stats on folks that need low noise at high iso is higher than your imagined 1%.
I shoot street, ideally, that would mean good high ISO performance, fast AF and small size. The K-7 has the size, with OK AF and high ISO.

I commonly use ISO 400-1600 on my K10D. Upgrading to the K-7 soon. D700 looks great, it's just too big for street.
03-18-2010, 11:04 AM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rees Quote
I totally agree with all your sentiments, but a full frame and greater pixel count would be handy.
I do not think Pentax read this forum, they are not interested in what the punters think who buy and use their equipment, they are a law unto their selves.
Hey guys...I know they read this forum.
03-18-2010, 01:00 PM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
Hey guys...I know they read this forum.
In that case, let's repeat it: Fix the AF. Not just faster, more sensitive and precise but also fix the interface: The point selection needs to be effortless at all times. And if you are making a pro camera, just hide the filters and jpegoptions in the menus and reserve the dedicated buttons for shooting and focus control.
The 645D is really not cheering me up in this respect. "Safox IX" at a camera for 10 grand? Seeing the minute progress the Safox has made so far I don't think anything less than "Safox XV" will do for a pro APS-C camera.
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