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03-19-2010, 05:36 AM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by rvannatta Quote
seems to me those wanting an expensive larger format camera should quit talking
about a scrawny 24x36 and acknowledge bigger is better, and hop a plane for
japan and get in line for the 645D. the 35mm format was conceived as a way to take
single shots on movie film which was plentiful. the reason (pentiful 35 mm film) for that format is gone, so why is the format sacred.????

while the 645D is perhaps more expensive now that possibily a so called FF (which we used to call a miniture) its price is about what the rumored price of the first Pentax digital
(never produced) was. If the hundreds of thousands who want high photo quality now
at a higher price would all line up in japan and get a 645D, the overwhelming success
of the product will allow the price to work its way down, and it will always produce a better
picture than can be expected from the FF. the 645D is the FF killer, you all demanding an ff as so hung up on a particular size that you have forgotten that bigger is better, and that Pentax has outflanked the canikons with it. They have jumped right over their head
and now they can nail the coffin shut by driving the 645d price down to match that
of a FF, and putting a 6x7D ontop the heap for those who really want high resolution
photos.

If the 645d could rip off 8 frames a second, had a useful ISO range, and had blistering fast autofocus I would consider it. If pure image quality is what I want I would use an 8x10 film camera.

You and everyone else seems to forget that the 645d is untested. It may look good on paper, but could turn out to be a dud like the K7. They had to cut some corners to get it to the $10k mark so we will have to see what it really is like. It may be a third of the price of the Hasselblad, but it may only be one third the camera. Right now it's a lot of hype and not much else.

If the frothing at the mouth fanboys would take off their rose coloured glasses they might see that.

03-19-2010, 06:24 AM   #167
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QuoteOriginally posted by rae2 Quote
(It's the same with my stereo system... with my 70+ year old ears, there's not much point in laying out thousands for a Bose system!)
But deaf people are Bose's target market!

Last edited by WerTicus; 03-19-2010 at 06:32 AM.
03-19-2010, 07:21 AM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by aragondina Quote
You and everyone else seems to forget that the 645d is untested. It may look good on paper, but could turn out to be a dud like the K7. T
Huh, the K-7 is everything but a dud.
03-19-2010, 07:30 AM   #169
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All Pentax has to do is target something like sony's a900 or the upcoming olympus e-5. They need something that they are marketing as a "Pro" camera.

Granted a 12-14mp FF with clean images up to 12,800, 7-10 fps and way faster AF would be great.

03-19-2010, 09:38 AM   #170
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QuoteOriginally posted by aragondina Quote
Why not? They can build the lenses too, they do know how. As far as client base, they let the business go so far behind everyone else they lost a lot of people, and it will be hard, if not impossible to win them back. They have to get the new people buying and they are doing that with the Kx and K7, but then they need something to keep them with the brand. Sorry but an incremental change in the K7 won't do it.

Better to aim for the top instead of planned mediocrity. They may not get there, but they should at least try to produce a top tier DSLR, not just low end models. I would be happy with something in between the D3s and the 7d for performance.

If they had actually brought out this camera instead of dropping the ball back in 2001 they may not have lost so many customers. and we would not be having this discussion.
If they had released that camera they would have been bankrupt like Contax who did. The "incremental" change of the K7 and the K-x have doubled Pentax marketshare. The 645D is socond to none, but the leader in its class.
03-19-2010, 09:41 AM   #171
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QuoteOriginally posted by aragondina Quote
If the 645d could rip off 8 frames a second, had a useful ISO range, and had blistering fast autofocus I would consider it. If pure image quality is what I want I would use an 8x10 film camera.

You and everyone else seems to forget that the 645d is untested. It may look good on paper, but could turn out to be a dud like the K7. They had to cut some corners to get it to the $10k mark so we will have to see what it really is like. It may be a third of the price of the Hasselblad, but it may only be one third the camera. Right now it's a lot of hype and not much else.

If the frothing at the mouth fanboys would take off their rose coloured glasses they might see that.
Are you living in a parellel universe?
(are you sure name isn't Bruce, Herb or tweedle?)
03-19-2010, 09:54 AM   #172
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I couldn't care less about more pixels, more functions, in camera hdr, video etc. There are really only two things I want from my next DSLR and those are better dynamic range and dynamic range distribution and less noisy/banded blue skies.

I like the K20D but those two things really bug me about it:

1) The lackluster shadow detail and shadow tone. I get better dynamic range, tonality and highlight/shadow detail from a 50 year old Rolleicord and consumer grade film than from my K20D.

2) The noise/banding in blue skies on b&w conversions. Even the K100D raws did significantly better in that area.
03-19-2010, 10:24 AM   #173
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
You've seen...? I've worked with RAW from 7D. It's the worst APS-C camera in terms of IQ. It's 100% product of marketing. Early diffraction, noise from ISO100, very narrow DR and it's almost unreal to get pictures with good sharpness.

Add the problems with AF of 7D.
someone in the other forum who shoots both confers that the 7d is a little noisy at low iso.

YMMV

Pentax K7 VERSUS Canon T2I! [Page 2]: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

03-19-2010, 05:15 PM   #174
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QuoteOriginally posted by aragondina Quote
If the 645d could" ...bleh...bleh...bleh.... "it's a lot of hype and not much else.

If the frothing at the mouth fanboys" ..bleh...bleh...bleh.
Me thinks I smell a forum troll.
03-19-2010, 06:29 PM   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by rvannatta Quote
seems to me those wanting an expensive larger format camera should quit talking
about a scrawny 24x36 and acknowledge bigger is better, and hop a plane for
japan and get in line for the 645D. the 35mm format was conceived as a way to take
single shots on movie film which was plentiful. the reason (pentiful 35 mm film) for that format is gone, so why is the format sacred.????

while the 645D is perhaps more expensive now that possibily a so called FF (which we used to call a miniture) its price is about what the rumored price of the first Pentax digital
(never produced) was. If the hundreds of thousands who want high photo quality now
at a higher price would all line up in japan and get a 645D, the overwhelming success
of the product will allow the price to work its way down, and it will always produce a better
picture than can be expected from the FF. the 645D is the FF killer, you all demanding an ff as so hung up on a particular size that you have forgotten that bigger is better, and that Pentax has outflanked the canikons with it. They have jumped right over their head
and now they can nail the coffin shut by driving the 645d price down to match that
of a FF, and putting a 6x7D ontop the heap for those who really want high resolution
photos.
The 645D is a completely different tool, does not "kill FF" at all (because it doesn't offer the capabilities or tools available for 35mm format), and wouldn't eliminate the market for FF if it sold for $2,000, much less $9,400. Different cameras for different purposes. Pentax hasn't "outflanked" competitors with the 645D, they've added some more competitors, i.e., Hassleblad, Mamiya and Phase One, not to mention Leica. By your ridiculous logic, I guess Pentax should stop production of APS-C dSLRs as well, since if the 645D "kills FF," it absolutely annihilates APS-C. :ugh:
03-19-2010, 06:47 PM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
The 645D is a completely different tool, does not "kill FF" at all (because it doesn't offer the capabilities or tools available for 35mm format), and wouldn't eliminate the market for FF if it sold for $2,000, much less $9,400. Different cameras for different purposes. Pentax hasn't "outflanked" competitors with the 645D, they've added some more competitors, i.e., Hassleblad, Mamiya and Phase One, not to mention Leica. By your ridiculous logic, I guess Pentax should stop production of APS-C dSLRs as well, since if the 645D "kills FF," it absolutely annihilates APS-C. :ugh:
I think that Pentax has decided, rightly or wrongly, that they cannot challenge Canon and Nikon's dominance in the full frame market. An upper end, full frame camera, with great high iso and fast in lens auto focus is beyond their capability at this point in time. As to whether or not it eventually will be within their capability remains to be seen.

On the other hand, clearly they have reviewed the medium format market and decided that it is easy pickings. The current makers of medium format have done little to advance the cameras themselves, leaning instead on the sensor makers to make improvements.

I do think that there are certain users of full frame who would gladly switch. Certainly not sports shooters/gunners, but there are some D3x users who would see this as an upgrade that fits will with their style of shooting.
03-19-2010, 07:21 PM   #177
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Pentax has quite the extensive 645 lens lineup. It has never had a truly competitive FF lineup.

Go look at the Hassleblad lens offerings, they aren't much more complete than what Pentax has on offer now. The only thing they really have is a 28mm, and I'm sure that is, or even wider, is the next lens out.
03-19-2010, 10:53 PM   #178
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QuoteOriginally posted by aragondina Quote
If the 645d could rip off 8 frames a second, had a useful ISO range, and had blistering fast autofocus I would consider it. If pure image quality is what I want I would use an 8x10 film camera.

You and everyone else seems to forget that the 645d is untested. It may look good on paper, but could turn out to be a dud like the K7. They had to cut some corners to get it to the $10k mark so we will have to see what it really is like. It may be a third of the price of the Hasselblad, but it may only be one third the camera. Right now it's a lot of hype and not much else.

If the frothing at the mouth fanboys would take off their rose coloured glasses they might see that.
Of course if they brought out a FF it would be equally 'untested' As one who bought an 'istD', though, I thought they did a pretty decent job with their first 1/2 frame model.

I rather suspect one of the reasons for the Japan only introduction is to
supress sales early on so if the product starts to develop a Lemon Odor
it will be easier to manage. I don't see that as evidence of lack of confidence in the product as much as it is a prudent business practice
03-20-2010, 02:55 AM   #179
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More likely they want to make everything right on the home market (e.g. meeting the initial demand, study the market's response).
Btw, people are pre-ordering 645Ds. On amazon.co.jp top 100 sales it climbed on #51 for a while, now it's on #79 and going down... and I don't think we see often DMF cameras making in top100.
03-20-2010, 03:25 AM   #180
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K-7 successor with the following would make me content at the moment:

- 8 fps
- 1080p, H.264 video, with manual controls of course (including audio)
- not more than $1,200 SRP

Basically like a Canon 7D, only cheaper and NOT GIGANTIC like a FF camera


Then after this they can try to make FF bodies or 645D MkII or whatever.
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