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12-09-2009, 02:22 PM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by Vertex Ninja Quote
@Ben
I think you understood me correctly the first time it's just that we take different points of view. I believe that pentax is not seriously taking forums into consideration when planning the camera, so it doesn't really matter that hardly any of us would buy it. We're not the target market.
This is exactly the problem I see, too: no target market, not us and sure not the few select pros. Because pros need professional services and Pentax does not even provide services for semi-professionals anymore... I wittness the kind of service the other MF manufacturers provide and Pentax simply does not play in that league.

Ben

12-09-2009, 02:27 PM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
This is exactly the problem I see, too: no target market, not us and sure not the few select pros. Because pros need professional services and Pentax does not even provide services for semi-professionals anymore... I wittness the kind of service the other MF manufacturers provide and Pentax simply does not play in that league.

Ben
But, could they? Let's say the camera is a success, does Hoya have the resources to offer this kind of support? Maybe it's already in the plans... who knows.
12-09-2009, 02:37 PM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by Vertex Ninja Quote
But, could they? Let's say the camera is a success, does Hoya have the resources to offer this kind of support? Maybe it's already in the plans... who knows.
Sorry, but a professional customer will not wait, until Hoya has established a professional service modell all over the world. And sure the buying decision will take the available service into account.

If you go to any important sports event you will find the Nikon and Canon service teams there to care for the pro photographers. If you go to a Paris fashion show, you will also have CaNikons service teams at hand, if you do a studio shoot and need repleacement for a broken camera or lens, you give your local Mamiya partner a call and have that replacement usually withion hours.

If I need a fast repair of my DA 16-50/2.8 and send it to the Pentax repair shop in germany with an accompanying business letter and give them a call immediately, I still wait weeks, to get the lens back. That is a no go for a professional product.

I simply wish, Pentax would concentrate its limited resources on the amateur/advanced amateur market (though they fullfill my own and several others professional needs in terms of final image quality and especially in terms of useability). Another DSLR and just three (or so) more lenses, would do more good for the company, than a 645D.

Ben
12-09-2009, 05:49 PM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
Sorry, but a professional customer will not wait, until Hoya has established a professional service modell all over the world. And sure the buying decision will take the available service into account.
Canon and Nikon certainly did not become "pro" over night and future pro photogs will be born every day, so if we look beyond ourselves, and to the future, surely it's not inconceivable to think that these services could eventually be offered. I know this might be an overly optimistic/idealistic way of thinking, but companies have to start somewhere. A camera like the 645D could do a lot for the companies mind share for the time being and the support network could be built up gradually.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
If you go to any important sports event...
I think it's safe to assume that this camera will not be marketed towards sports photographers, but I get what you mean.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
If I need a fast repair of my DA 16-50/2.8 and send it to the Pentax repair shop in germany with an accompanying business letter and give them a call immediately, I still wait weeks, to get the lens back. That is a no go for a professional product.
Playing devils advocate, but I don't believe Pentax ever made claims that this lens or any of their products were a "pro" product in the same sense that Nikon or Canon might. I don't imagine D90(arguably same class as k20 or k7) customers for example, receive repairs or replacement in hours. These are just my thoughts though, I've never owned a Nikon or Canon camera and can't speak factually about their level of service and support.

12-09-2009, 06:00 PM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
This is exactly the problem I see, too: no target market, not us and sure not the few select pros. Because pros need professional services and Pentax does not even provide services for semi-professionals anymore... I wittness the kind of service the other MF manufacturers provide and Pentax simply does not play in that league.

Ben
Pentax have been selling professional (MF) cameras to professional photographers for over 40 years. They have a higher pro percentage, at 50%, than Hasselblad (25% in the film days) and Nikon and Canon (less than 5% on their pro cameras in the film days).
Pentax is also perhaps the worlds most sucessful medium format system reaching up 50% marketshare in the worlds largest MF market; Japan.
You could say that Pentax operates in a field where support isn't much needed and in addition, having one of the most reliable system on the planet.
When that is said, Pentax have pro service in many countries and they loaned me a lens for free for six months (and I'm not even pro).
12-10-2009, 01:48 AM   #141
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This may very well be on of the reason with Pentax is moving it regional headquarters to France.

Pentax has in France twice the market share as in the rest of the world, but Paris is also arguably the capital of fashion photography (or at least one of the capitals with New York) Fashion photography is the biggest market at the moment for this type of equipment (renting or buying) so having the regional managers and the stock closer to them may counted too.

It's not a professional support program per se, but it will certainly make tings easier when Pentax will decide to create one.

Regards,
Guillaume
12-10-2009, 02:21 AM   #142
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12-10-2009, 09:09 AM   #143
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46x36
Quite unfortunate IMO.

12-10-2009, 09:15 AM   #144
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It's just guess, but it's new Kodak sensor. Not the same as in Phase One P40+

The JPEG size of picture was 7264 x 5440 In Chinese rumors.

The specs of Kodak = 7304 x 5478. It could be real. This sensor uses new technology with sensivity higher than 40% than old Kodak MF sensors.
We could see base ISO50-800 with boost mode till ISO3200.

Last edited by ogl; 12-10-2009 at 09:28 AM.
12-10-2009, 09:36 AM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
It's just guess, but it's new Kodak sensor. Not the same as in Phase One P40+

The JPEG size of picture was 7264 x 5440 In Chinese rumors.

The specs of Kodak = 7304 x 5478. It could be real. This sensor uses new technology with sensivity higher than 40% than old Kodak MF sensors.
We could see base ISO50-800 with boost mode till ISO3200.
Personnaly, and although I never will have the budget for that camera (so I'm not concerned myself), I'd prefer 1.1x crop and 400ISO max rather than 1.3x and 800/1600 iso.
12-10-2009, 09:38 AM   #146
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So do I
12-10-2009, 10:34 AM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Pentax have been selling professional (MF) cameras to professional photographers for over 40 years. They have a higher pro percentage, at 50%, than Hasselblad (25% in the film days) and Nikon and Canon (less than 5% on their pro cameras in the film days).
Pentax is also perhaps the worlds most sucessful medium format system reaching up 50% marketshare in the worlds largest MF market; Japan.
You could say that Pentax operates in a field where support isn't much needed and in addition, having one of the most reliable system on the planet. .
There is some truth in what you write. The problem is: it should all be past tense...

How much of the pro sector have Canon and Nikon today? And how much is split between Hasselblad and PhaseOne (incorporating Mamiya and Leaf, well over 50% MF market share)? If Pentax gets 5% of the MF market, I consider that high - but whether it is enough to keep a MF business viable, I don't know. The examples of Jenoptik/Sinar/Rollei/Leaf should be a reminder about how competitive this market is.

As I do not know for sure decisive factors about the 645D, like pricing, system availability, services etc. I will not go further speculating.

But one thing I'ld like to add: professional services may not be important for you - but for somebody earning his livelyhood with the camera, it is indispensible. If a MF digital camera stopps working, you simply need a replacement immediately and not after a couple of weeks repair time –*than your business is probably bust, as these days many photographic business exist on very tight margins.

I'ld like to see Pentax making a big impact into the MF market, but I am realistic.

Ben


P.S.: Just got my Hasselblad newsletter: A 39MP back + brand new Hasselblad 503CW body can be had for a total of 11,434 Euros now (that is European pricing, including 19% VAT) and that includes H'blad's software Phocus... That is the price competition, Pentax has to face.

Last edited by Ben_Edict; 12-10-2009 at 10:38 AM. Reason: NEWS
12-12-2009, 04:00 AM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Personnaly, and although I never will have the budget for that camera (so I'm not concerned myself), I'd prefer 1.1x crop and 400ISO max rather than 1.3x and 800/1600 iso.
Actual frame size for 645 film is not 6x4.5 cm. It is lower.
12-12-2009, 07:38 AM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zebooka Quote
Actual frame size for 645 film is not 6x4.5 cm. It is lower.
I know that and took it into account.
12-12-2009, 08:36 AM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
46x36
Quite unfortunate IMO.
56*41.5 mm vs 46*36 mm... Much lower...
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