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11-28-2009, 02:52 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
You mean they should ignore the MF market instead? Pentax high-end presence has been in the MF market. They have been very sucessful there. They had up to 50% of the MF market i Japan (the worlds largest MF market).
I'm sure Pentax will release an FF camera one day.
Just because it worked in the film days doesn't mean it will work in the digital era. I really hope it does, and I really hope it's affordable. If it is indeed affordable I'd love to have one myself and I'd forget all about full frame, but I have no hope of that. At best this will be an $8,000 camera. That's just a touch more pricey that the $2,200 Pentax 645N II when it was released in 2001. I'm sure some people will spring for it, pros mainly, but how many amateurs are willing to pay $8k+ for a camera? I know quite a few amateur photographers locally, but I only know one that has paid more than $6,000 for a digital camera. For all the rest of us $2,000 is the magic number that we refuse to cross.

So in the mean time I'll keep on shooting my LX, scanning, and hoping one day Pentax will finally make a digital version.

11-28-2009, 03:03 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
A guy once said that that 1 MB RAM was more than anyone would ever need. Remember who is it? Laughable isn't it?
I don't think resolution can be compared to computing power, those are two completely different things. Resolution has a sweet spot for different kinds of users, where too much brings too many bad side effects, and too little is no longer appealing enough. More RAM does not come with significant side effects.

For example, Joe average will never really need more than, say, 15MP. Even if storage and processing capacity will make it easy enough to store and process 40MB files, more than 15MP will never really be useful for Joe average.
11-28-2009, 03:08 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Why do so many ask for successors of these discontinued cameras all the time? The K-7 and K-x are the current successors. Maybe there will be something between them, maybe above them. Who knows.
Because the K-7 feels like a cheap toy in comparison to the K20D?
11-28-2009, 03:21 PM   #49
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QuoteQuote:
Because the K-7 feels like a cheap toy in comparison to the K20D?
You'll find no support from me for that point of view. I've owned a K10D for a long while and have been using the K-7 a lot for the last couple of months. I find it smaller but far and away the better put together camera. Cheap toy? Give me a break. Just compare the on-switch. K10/20 - smooth, positive, unremarkable. When you switch a K-7 on you know it. I have just weighed up each one in my hands. I disagree.

Have you owned a K-7 or just seen one/played with it for a few mins?

11-28-2009, 03:33 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by jptreen Quote
You'll find no support from me for that point of view. I've owned a K10D for a long while and have been using the K-7 a lot for the last couple of months. I find it smaller but far and away the better put together camera. Cheap toy? Give me a break. Just compare the on-switch. K10/20 - smooth, positive, unremarkable. When you switch a K-7 on you know it. I have just weighed up each one in my hands. I disagree.

Have you owned a K-7 or just seen one/played with it for a few mins?
Just try the sliding SD card door - it's a couple steps above the battery door on the AF540 flash, but the locking door on the K20D is much better. And the silly rubber cover over the I/O ports? What were they thinking?

I'd say the switches and buttons are on par with the K10D/K20D but, IMO, Pentax does not currently have a camera with overall build quality on par with the K10D/K20D.
11-28-2009, 03:34 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by jptreen Quote
You'll find no support from me for that point of view. I've owned a K10D for a long while and have been using the K-7 a lot for the last couple of months. I find it smaller but far and away the better put together camera. Cheap toy? Give me a break. Just compare the on-switch. K10/20 - smooth, positive, unremarkable. When you switch a K-7 on you know it. I have just weighed up each one in my hands. I disagree.

Have you owned a K-7 or just seen one/played with it for a few mins?
May be he means toy like in so far as it is a small camera "toy sized" in comparison to the Kx0D cameras.

QuoteOriginally posted by sebberry Quote
Just try the sliding SD card door - it's a couple steps above the battery door on the AF540 flash, but the locking door on the K20D is much better. And the silly rubber cover over the I/O ports? What were they thinking?

I'd say the switches and buttons are on par with the K10D/K20D but, IMO, Pentax does not currently have a camera with overall build quality on par with the K10D/K20D.
Well i guess i missed your point but i will adress them. Silly rubber covers, same as every other DSLR in the segment and above... unfortunate side effect of the Mag alloy body, i assume that the doors are just too expensive to machine and install. I do like the card door on the Kx0D series but can find it fiddly... each to there own, only an issue for me every few 100 shots.
11-28-2009, 03:42 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cideway Quote
May be he means toy like in so far as it is a small camera "toy sized" in comparison to the Kx0D cameras.
That too, but I can see the benifit of having a smaller camera. For me, I prefer the bigger body. I don't have huge hands but I like the feel of a larger camera.

I think having a larger Kx0D sized body for people more comfortable with a larger camera would be wise for Pentax. A body that could be used for a few model revisions and also possibly accommodate a FF sensor.
11-28-2009, 03:45 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cideway Quote
Well i guess i missed your point but i will adress them. Silly rubber covers, same as every other DSLR in the segment and above... unfortunate side effect of the Mag alloy body, i assume that the doors are just too expensive to machine and install. I do like the card door on the Kx0D series but can find it fiddly... each to there own, only an issue for me every few 100 shots.
The AV door on my K10D is plastic, yet feels quite solid with a soft yet reassuring latching action. I can't see it being hard to do this on the K7.

Hopefully they used a good quality rubber on the K7's AV door, constant flexing of rubber hinges like that can wear them out and cause them to crack and fall off.

11-28-2009, 04:01 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
That sounds like the type of arguments we've heard on here from the anti-FF crowd for years when discussing APS-C vs FF IQ. I assume those same people will now argue that size does matter and bigger is better.

I wouldn't call my slef part of the anti-FF crowd, i do fall into the "I don't see FF offering enough of an advantage to justify the extra cost and weight" crowd. Medium format does, even the old 22mp backs blow the Nikon D3x out of the water for image quality, the difference (in low ISO image quality) between FF and MFD is greater in my opinion then the difference between APS-C and FF
11-28-2009, 06:06 PM   #55
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I wonder why people slag Pentax for introducing a MF camera? It is part of their heritage; it makes complete sense that they would want to leverage their expertise in this area with a digital sensor. Did Pentax sell their film MF bodies to all the studio and wedding photographers? No, they carved out their own niche, alongside Hasselblad, Bronica, etc. Their cameras were not perfect for every application, but their advantages are obvious: size, portability, ease of handling, ergonomics, price. Plus you could get excellent lenses for far less than the competition. Makes sense to me.
11-28-2009, 08:12 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
I wonder why people slag Pentax for introducing a MF camera? It is part of their heritage; it makes complete sense that they would want to leverage their expertise in this area with a digital sensor. Did Pentax sell their film MF bodies to all the studio and wedding photographers? No, they carved out their own niche, alongside Hasselblad, Bronica, etc. Their cameras were not perfect for every application, but their advantages are obvious: size, portability, ease of handling, ergonomics, price. Plus you could get excellent lenses for far less than the competition. Makes sense to me.
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm glad Pentax is making a 645D, I just wish they'd take care of the nagging 24x36 issue first. Last I checked 35mm was also a large part of their heritage. The 645D will obviously be a very expensive camera. If it's $8000 it will be considered a bargain as far as medium format goes, but still, I'll never own one the same as I'll never own a Leica M9 even though I'd very much like one. It just seems as though they could make a very large segment of their customers very happy by making a $2000 35mm DSLR (a full frame K20D basically). It's just very frustrating that Pentax continues to ignore us and to add insult to injury they now decide to release what will probably be an $8000 camera that most people can't afford or justify even if they can.

All that said, if by some miracle they can bring it in under $8000 it will be a raging bargain as far as medium format goes, and it will probably be a hit for them in the pro and VERY serious amateur segments. So that's all well and good, but until I win the lottery it has no bearing on me any more than other $3000+ cameras do. I've tried 4 different cropped sensor cameras by 3 manufactures in the last year trying to find one I'm happy with and have come back full circle back to Pentax. They certainly make the cameras I like the most, but they just haven't made my ideal yet. The wait seems never ending

Last edited by Art Vandelay II; 11-28-2009 at 08:40 PM. Reason: typo
11-28-2009, 08:33 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
. . .

Everybody knows the problems and incompetencies this manufacturer demonstrated over and over again. I just think, that a high-end camera for a low-end price is only wishful thinking.
Perhaps Hoya management has resolved some of the incompetencies. Ive decided to be the optimist in this regard - without going into wish mode (just to be disappointed). Having seen the marketing techniques of the K-7 (few hints, some leaks to selected blabbermouths, more detailed releases by more credible beta testers green-lighted, the the website), and the resulting innovations of the K-7, this just "feels" like something more real and thought out this time.

I think we are in the "approved" early rumor stage now, to be followed shortly by more "leaks" such as the printing plate for the cover of the manual.
11-28-2009, 08:45 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
I wonder why people slag Pentax for introducing a MF camera? It is part of their heritage; it makes complete sense that they would want to leverage their expertise in this area with a digital sensor. Did Pentax sell their film MF bodies to all the studio and wedding photographers? No, they carved out their own niche, alongside Hasselblad, Bronica, etc. Their cameras were not perfect for every application, but their advantages are obvious: size, portability, ease of handling, ergonomics, price. Plus you could get excellent lenses for far less than the competition. Makes sense to me.
my $0.12 -

St. Louis certainly isn't the fashion capital of the world by any means, but we do have a garment district and an emerging young fashion design group. Our warehouse district in close proximity to the office ghetto survived demolition (finally a benefit to being overlooked by redevelopers for 50 years!!) and lo and behold it has become a vibrant, bohemian artist/writer/photographer loft district that is HOT - even in this economy.

In an article on a young female fashion photographer recently published by St. Louis Magazine (part of a multi-feature edition on the Loft District), the feature photo highlighted this young lady with a (hold your breath) 67II in her hands, and a dry cabinet full of lenses, backup bodies and 645 lenses and bodies behind her.

Again, my gut sense is the market is larger than we think and the 645D will be a greater success than we can imagine - and we won't have to get gray-market cameras from Japanese forwarders.
11-28-2009, 09:01 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by sebberry Quote
Because the K-7 feels like a cheap toy in comparison to the K20D?
Though I don't own the K-7 yet and I have the K10D (and I like it), however, I am not sure if I agree with you remark (you are entitle to your opinion). I read the article about the Pentax engineers designing the k-7 body, and many aspects of the design have been given much thought about ergonomics and usability; that is why I think Pentax will abandon the K10D/K20D body. With the advancement of electronics, more advanced features can be packed into smaller bodies. You don't have to like smaller camera bodies, just like the Canikon users; but these smaller cameras with advanced features will gain acceptance quickly in the next few years - just look at the netbook evolution, I remember people used to laugh at the 10" netbook being a toy.
11-28-2009, 09:26 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Again, my gut sense is the market is larger than we think and the 645D will be a greater success than we can imagine - and we won't have to get gray-market cameras from Japanese forwarders.
I read an interview recently (I believe it was a strobist article) with a person that works at an agency that said roughly 20% of their photographers still shoot film, and usually medium format. However, the reason they do so is simply because they like film. So I wonder how many of those people are actually waiting on a digital 645 or if they're perfectly content shooting film.

Here's another good article by Kirk Tuck on giving up digital and going back to medium format film:
The Visual Science Lab: April 2009

I've recently switched back to film myself (mainly because no one aside from Sony makes an affordable FF DSLR), but I've fallen in love with it again. I think more about what I'm doing instead of just snapping hundreds of pics and choosing the best. On average I've been getting far better results.
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