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12-12-2009, 10:50 AM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
In other words, you've given up on the actual argument (that you never quite understood), but keep it up with continued personal attacks. Brilliant.
How can you tell what I understand? Because I don't agree with a flawed analogy? Ben has already handled what I was going to post next. Printer ink climbs in price constantly.

If you think the tin foil hat comment was a "personal attack," you've haven't been at this here internets for long, have you?

If you think that line was a "personal attack"...you might need to step away from the keyboard for a while.

QuoteOriginally posted by filorp Quote
I don't know why i'v read this thread.... apart from - to crack myself up. Somebody should punch the table shouting: stop it!!! Is there any reason to stay with Pentax apart from sharing Leica price? Does limiteds justify having crapy AF? Haw does it look comparing to canikons? Are the lenses really worth the price? Am i stupid and naive sticking with pentax? Are canicons naive and stupid paying for plastick-fantastic and soft lenses but with fast and acurate AF? .................................?
Short answers in order:

Yes, lots
Crappy how?
Comparisons are boring
Yes
No
Yes and no



QuoteOriginally posted by Damn Brit Quote
Just a point on that, I can only speak from my experience in Britain. Luxury items (what are considered non essential, lenses for example) and junk food are definitely cheaper in the US. Basic items (the essentials) like bread, milk, cereals tend to be more expensive in the US. In my experience the overall cost of living isn't much different between the two countries. People always make fuel price comparisons but that is smokescreen. Gas may be a third of the price in the US but you probably have to drive three times as far as in Britain. The vast majority in Britain can even walk to get their essentials, very few can do that in the US.
I agree with that. In Berlin, I could go anywhere and everywhere in the city for 2 Euro per day...less if I were there long-term. ~$2.50 would get me about 20 miles inside the city (20MPG @ $2.50/gallon), and if I went downtown, I'd have to pay for parking.

12-12-2009, 11:43 AM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by ryan s Quote
Printer ink climbs in price constantly.
Which is also quite irrelevant. I didn't respond to that as I didn't want to derail this discussion further towards printer ink, something which you seem to be obsessed to do.

However if you insist... there is a huge difference between the case where, as Ben said, the cartridge price for the next line of printers goes up (as you can then just buy another brand) and the case where cartridge price for the same printer goes up (as in my analogy).

Do you understand how that is different? If not, then you have more severe reading and overall comprehension issues than previously evident.

QuoteQuote:
If you think the tin foil hat comment was a "personal attack," you've haven't been at this here internets for long, have you?
Only since ~1994 if you count Usenet.

That doesn't change what is and isn't an irrelevant personal attack though.

Last edited by juu; 12-12-2009 at 12:04 PM.
12-12-2009, 12:05 PM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Which is also quite irrelevant. I didn't respond to that as I didn't want to further derail this discussion further towards printer ink, something which you seem to be obsessed to do.

However if you insist... there is a huge difference between the case where, as Ben said, the cartridge price for the next line of printers goes up (as you can then just buy another brand) and the case where cartridge price for the same printer goes up (as in my analogy).

Do you understand how that is different? If not then you have more severe reading and overall comprehension issues than previously evident.

Only since ~1994 if you count Usenet.

That doesn't change what is and isn't an irrelevant personal attack though.
You don't want to derail it further, but can't resist responding

Saying that I have "more severe reading and overall comprehension issues than previously evident" is way over the top yet stoops to a new low. That's what I consider a REAL personal attack since I have proven that, yes, I am literate, and can respond using comprehensible English. Because I won't respond exactly how you want me to, nor will I agree with you, you dip lower to find insults to hope that I will keep escalating the comments.

I'll leave that here for the mods to find, and if they choose to deal with it, fine. This time I won't report it since I'm more interested to see how they handle it.

With that...on my Ignore List you go. You join an illustrious list of people!
12-12-2009, 12:34 PM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Those are very good points, and the term 'cheap' certainly has bad connotations.

However, if instead you bought Pentax because it offered good value for money and wasn't overpriced, and you assume people will think you are financially savvy instead, that would turn the same purchase around.

Nevertheless, changing the perception of Pentax as being a premium brand, even though unwelcome for people like me, might actually be good for many as you would no longer have to explain why you are shooting that wedding with a Pentax instead of a Canikon.

However, a move upmarket by simply raising the prices in a haphazard way and otherwise doing the same things as before is likely to fail, even if the product were already up to the standard.

Time will tell if Hoya is simply squeezing what profit they can out of Pentax or has a long-term picture in mind.
You make some good points, I actually own a Skoda car which is made in the Czech Republic, relatively cheap and uses Volkswagen group components so its mechanically robust and good quality. They are a serious value brand in the UK now. But I actually bought the model I did (a Roomster) because its the only car with its loadspace that fits in my garage, has the options I wanted and a nearby dealer. The fact that it was quite affordable was a big bonus but not the reason I bought it. In fact, the moment I saw it I knew I wanted one and I was really pleased when I found out I could get the top spec model well within my self imposed busget.

But really there is no such thing as a "good value brand image" that is not also tainted by Walmart connotations. A camera is a luxury item, not a necessity (as a car is for me anyway). You should buy what you need or want within reason, not simply get the best deal going. What difference does a couple of hundred bucks make when you are spending a few thousand on something you dont need?

Price in other words is the secondary consideration. "I want x, is x in my prince range?" not "I have $x, what can I buy?"

If I cannot afford what I want, then I may buy the model below and trade up later, or save up a bit longer, or trade something in. I would never buy into one system when the system I really wanted was only a few $$ more expensive.

I do agree that putting prices up in a haphazzard way is not a strategic move and will not help.


Last edited by *isteve; 12-12-2009 at 12:40 PM.
12-12-2009, 12:42 PM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
PS..Hey Steve, when are you coming to Paris again so you can help me calibrate my lenses to my K20D bodies?
What are the rates?

Seriously, I am healing well and should be travelling by January. Sending you an email.
12-12-2009, 01:32 PM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
But I actually bought the model I did (a Roomster) because its the only car with its loadspace that fits in my garage, has the options I wanted and a nearby dealer. The fact that it was quite affordable was a big bonus but not the reason I bought it.
People differ in how price sensitive they are.

The Roomster is a fairly unique car and was what you needed which is why you didn't care very much for the price. However, most non-Roomster Skoda buyers care a lot more about the price than you did.

To make a Pentax parallel and state the obvious, someone whose main priority is a weather-resistant camera will be ready to pay more of a premium for Pentax than someone who just needs a good DSLR.

QuoteQuote:
But really there is no such thing as a "good value brand image" that is not also tainted by Walmart connotations.
That is a very good point. People associate price with value very much.

QuoteQuote:
A camera is a luxury item, not a necessity
Only if taking a very wide view of a "luxury item" (in which case also things like microwave ovens, TV sets, foreign holidays and so forth all become luxury items).

And again, just like with price sensitivity people differ in how they perceive their digital camera purchase - as a toy to buy for Christmas and forget, or as a necessity (in case of professionals).

There are few true current luxury camera brands. For me only Leica comes to mind (which with the Panasonic rebranding angle is an interesting marketing case as well).

Are Hoya hoping to position Pentax as a Leica-light? I'm not sure, but they'd surely love to. It won't work simply by raising prices of the top-end lenses while selling $500 K-x kits and doing mostly the same otherwise.

To come up with another analogy, it would be akin to Skoda trying to move upmarket by raising the Superb prices by 100% while leaving the rest of its lineup the same.

I'm snipping the rest of your message as I largely agree, if coming from the perspective of somebody price-insensitive in the case of a DSLR purchase. It's hard for me to evaluate how price sensitive the general public is. I know I've seen enough price comparisons on the different forums, but I've also seen even more pure brand loyalty.

Either way, in my opinion, Pentax has to come up with a USP (the WR + not-a-brick sizing angle is a good one) and convey it clearly to the customers as they take the brand upmarket. Instead with some exceptions the customers are already shooting with Canikon, don't even know Pentax exists or are unhappy with Pentax about the seemingly random lens price hikes.

Last edited by juu; 12-12-2009 at 01:57 PM.
12-12-2009, 01:52 PM   #142
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Alexander do you have pentax glasses?
Cause there is no need in pentax if you use tamron or sigma or tokina...
Pentax is firstly good glasses...
Comparing Pentax with another brand FF - much more money, but not always better result.

I have an idea to leave Pentax and buy Canon 5D... But after using 5D of my friend I want more and more Pentax K-x...
12-12-2009, 02:23 PM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
People differ in how price sensitive they are.

The Roomster is a fairly unique car and was what you needed which is why you didn't care very much for the price. However, most non-Roomster Skoda buyers care a lot more about the price than you did.
True, but I still love the car and its very high quality.
QuoteQuote:
To make a Pentax parallel and state the obvious, someone whose main priority is a weather-resistant camera will be ready to pay more of a premium for Pentax than someone who just needs a good DSLR.
Actually Pentax have more or less forced the rest of the market to offer WR in their semi-pro bodies. What they can offer as a premium niche is comparable build quality to the best of the competition (Nikon) but with compact dimensions, more luxurious finishes and really really fine optics. Like Leica perhaps, but the Japanese version.
QuoteQuote:
Only if taking a very wide view of a "luxury item" (in which case also things like microwave ovens, TV sets, foreign holidays and so forth all become luxury items).
I would argue that a microwave is purely utilitarian, TVs have some brand cachet but foreign holidays are definately luxurious. I would not spend a week in Ibiza even if the holiday were free but I would spend 1000 to go to Argentina and Chile even if I had to stay in pensions when I got there....
QuoteQuote:
And again, just like with price sensitivity people differ in how they perceive their digital camera purchase - as a toy to buy for Christmas and forget, or as a necessity (in case of professionals).
Pros are far more price conscious than amateurs. They will only buy (or rent) what they need to get a job done. Its all negative income...
QuoteQuote:
There are few true current luxury camera brands. For me only Leica comes to mind (which with the Panasonic rebranding angle is an interesting marketing case as well).

Are Hoya hoping to position Pentax as a Leica-light? I'm not sure, but they'd surely love to. It won't work simply by raising prices of the top-end lenses while selling $500 K-x kits and doing mostly the same otherwise.

To come up with another analogy, it would be akin to Skoda trying to move upmarket by raising the Superb prices by 100% while leaving the rest of its lineup the same.
Yes, I quite agree. They have to think differently and focus all the time on quality quality quality - both in build terms and in basic image quality terms. Sports performance is a very secondary issue (look at Leica). 5 year warranty on all gear would help a lot. But if they nail the quality issue, they can charge a premium.

Sadly I dont think the coloured bodies are a step in the right direction.

12-13-2009, 05:47 AM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Sadly I dont think the coloured bodies are a step in the right direction.
I actually thing the coloured bodies are a great idea and I'd love to buy one. However, as you say it doesn't fit well with being a serious, premium brand.

Not directly in response to what you wrote, judging from this thread, quite a few people seem to be price sensitive regarding camera systems.
12-13-2009, 08:23 AM   #145
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steve, i gather you live in uk, so i am a bit confused: have you checked the prices for premium pentax glass lately, compared with the competition (i am not talking tamron/sigma, but more like canon/nikon -- but mostly canon). i have stated repeatedly that i have no second thought about paying a reasonable premium for pentax, but 100% is not a reasonable premium, in my vue. as juu said, imagine having to pay twice for that skoda, even though it is what you wanted, you would probably think twice. now imagine having to pay twice for that skoda compared to the price of a similar bmw, not to the current price of the skoda...

if you say the current price, looking at the overall market in uk/europe, is reasonable to your eye and you say absolutely no problem, i swear i will be quiet (or ask you where you do your "lens shopping", in the worse case )

wheatfield: i'm sorry, but i didn't bother to actually reply. i am not sure if your comment was ack for my concerns ("jum ship") or it was merely sarcastic, as in "so what if it costs twice, an arm and a leg is a good price for a pentax lens, idiot", as you went on to crack (yet another) joke about the "pentax userbase" and how unreasonable and cheapskate pentaxians seem to be, and stated, again ignoring simple facts, that pentax has been underpricing their glass for a decade (as i said, compared to most makers, except maybe leica, that is simply not true, at least in europe); honestly, i am tired of this game and have better things to do, if you cannot follow logical reasoning, or just won't, i can understand it might be fun for you, but for me it's just boring and a waste of time. have fun

edit: i have mentioned before an "informal survey" i tried to do. have a look if you are curious
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/689002-post94.html

edit: and updated today:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/843146-post103.html

Last edited by nanok; 12-13-2009 at 09:41 AM.
12-13-2009, 12:00 PM   #146
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I can remember when Pentax was a top of the line camera and the Takumar lenses of the day were considered some of the best there was, and they are still sought after. They also were very expensive. While a couple hundred doesn't sound like much today, in the late 60's and early 70's many of us only dreamed of owning Taks and settled for Soligors and Vivitars. Many of the Pentax lenses until recently were selling for close to the same prices they were long ago.
I would much rather see Pentax as a quality, respected brand again rather than a bargain basement product brand users have "settled" for.
12-13-2009, 12:38 PM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
I actually thing the coloured bodies are a great idea and I'd love to buy one. However, as you say it doesn't fit well with being a serious, premium brand.

Not directly in response to what you wrote, judging from this thread, quite a few people seem to be price sensitive regarding camera systems.
I have no doubt, but Nikon, Canon and Sony make some good, cheap cameras and lenses. No small firm can compete on cost grounds, distirbution grounds or marketing grounds, so why try?

Small, niche brands nearly always trade on uniqueness and quality and are a little pricier too.
12-13-2009, 12:53 PM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
steve, i gather you live in uk, so i am a bit confused: have you checked the prices for premium pentax glass lately, compared with the competition (i am not talking tamron/sigma, but more like canon/nikon -- but mostly canon). i have stated repeatedly that i have no second thought about paying a reasonable premium for pentax, but 100% is not a reasonable premium, in my vue.
I never said it was. I am talking in general terms, not specific ones. However I dont think 100% is typical at all. Most comparable lenses are with 10-20%.
QuoteQuote:
as juu said, imagine having to pay twice for that skoda, even though it is what you wanted, you would probably think twice. now imagine having to pay twice for that skoda compared to the price of a similar bmw, not to the current price of the skoda...
at twice the price I would not have bought it, but I would not have bought anything else either. My old Focus would just have soldiered on for a few more years.
QuoteQuote:
if you say the current price, looking at the overall market in uk/europe, is reasonable to your eye and you say absolutely no problem, i swear i will be quiet (or ask you where you do your "lens shopping", in the worse case )
I did not say that. I said if Pentax offered image and build quality at least as good as anyone else, plus a smarter fit and finish, I would pay a premium (think Audi vs VW - same parts, same build, different finish - both great cars but the Audi costs more).

I did not say I would pay their current lens prices and I wont but I would pay 20% extra if they were worth the money.

When an APS lens with a slow micro motor costs the same or more than a FF zoom with a fast ring motor without any singificant advantages in terms of IQ or build quality or weather sealing, then I really dont think they ARE worth the money.

But as I said, I was talking about a general principle not the current situation.
12-13-2009, 03:42 PM   #149
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okay, fair enough. the only problem was that it sounded very much as you were confortable with the current situation (very easy to misslead because that's what the here discussion was about). thanks for clearing that, as i said before, i completely agree with you, i do not mind paying a reasonable premium (as you said, up to 10, maybe 20 percent)

audi/vw: ahem, no, they're not the same car, i don't know why people believe they are . and skoda is not really volkswagen either. the cost cutting is not done only on interior finish. but that's a whole other story. the skodas are definetly very decent cars, that being said. funny enough, in their own country of origin they are ridiculously expensive (even second hand)
12-13-2009, 05:51 PM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
okay, fair enough. the only problem was that it sounded very much as you were confortable with the current situation (very easy to misslead because that's what the here discussion was about). thanks for clearing that, as i said before, i completely agree with you, i do not mind paying a reasonable premium (as you said, up to 10, maybe 20 percent)
Thats OK, I was responding to a particular post without thinking about the rest of the thread so its easy to read my comments out of context.

QuoteQuote:
audi/vw: ahem, no, they're not the same car, i don't know why people believe they are . . and skoda is not really volkswagen either. the cost cutting is not done only on interior finish. but that's a whole other story.
VW group has a large parts bin and a lot of common drivetrains and floorpans and even switchgear shared across the different companies, moreso at the low end. True, chassis settings, body shells and trim are quite different and most Audi models are built to accommodate 4WD systems so the cars drive quite differently, but they have a lot more in common than say, Ford and Honda.
If I buy a Skoda, most of the mechanical components are tried and tested VW items, even if they are sometimes from the previous generation VW and their specification is adjusted slightly but the reliability and quality control is still good.
QuoteQuote:
the skodas are definetly very decent cars, that being said. funny enough, in their own country of origin they are ridiculously expensive (even second hand)
I didnt know that! I see you are Czech - is it actually cheaper to buy VW? In the UK that gap has closed a lot between them and apart from the Fabia/Polo they dont really make comparable models. The Octavia looks like a big saloon but it uses the Golf platform so it looks like a Passat class car for a Golf class price, but its really a Golf with a stretched 5 door body (and decent handling).
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