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12-21-2009, 10:58 AM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by KungPOW Quote
I am moving to Nikon. Slowly, not all at once, but certainly. The problem I have with Pentax is two fold.

1. Their quality control is abysmal. I have no interest in spending my cash on the top Pentax lenses only to wonder when and where the SDM crap out. Assuming I can get a 16-50 that does not have a decentering problem. This really is an issue. Pentax has pleaded the fifth, and there is no solution on the horizon. How is the resale value of these lenses? At least they could match Nikon's 5 year warrenty.

2. No full frame anywhere on the horizon. Zip Zilch. nadda. With Nikon I can buy FF lenses with the plan to later get the FF camera I want. Eventually the cost of FF will be where the K-7 is now. And when that happens, I want to have the lenses. With Pentax, I need to surf e-bay for the very rare FA28, FA35 FA24 etc. Bleh. With Nikon, and Canon, I can just go to the store and buy the lens I want with that 5 year warenty. Additionally, I if I do want to buy from e-bay, or craig's list, or KEH, there are far more lenses available. But I digress. With Pentax, the FF options are limited. FA limited as a matter of fact. and it turns out the three FA LTDS cost more then the Nikon 24-70 2.8. (I know there are more FF lenses from Pentax, like the FA 50 and there are the DA*'s that work on a FF body.)

So, I asked myself, what would I rather have? What would work better for me?

A K-7 with the 31, 43 and 77 for $4060.00 CAD (priced from Aden camera)

or

A D300S with the 24-70 2.8 for $3400.00 CAD

For me, Nikon has the gear that works for me. They have the FF f2.8 zooms that Pentax does not. I don't see the Pentax price advantage anymore.
FF...meh.

Big, heavy camera with a big, heavy lens vs small Pentax body with 3 of the best lenses Pentax has to offer...hmmmmmmmmmmmm...

QuoteOriginally posted by LeDave Quote
Until late 2010, we will see how it goes. If Pentax doesn't get their SDM straight and fix some stuff by then, then we can all assume that something is seriously wrong with Pentax. But with the success of the K-x and with the K-7 doing pretty good right now, I am just going to wait it out until late 2010. With all this profit they are making right now, I'm sure Pentax has to utilize this time and money to correct some of these problems, and hopefully more research and development into a SDM fixture.

KungPOW, I'm sure Pentax will release a FF in 2010, I am very certain of it. One of the biggest hint they gave that made it obvious was the 100mm WR Macro. If you really think about it this lens has no aperture ring and yet it's a DFA. DFA is stated to be a lens optimized for digital but can be used for film, you see what's the problem here? No aperture ring yet it doesn't fit the DFA description, meaning that Pentax is most probably going to change the DFA term to optimized for digital but works for full frame.

Now whatever Pentax is doing they are releasing a full frame. Hopefully when they do announce this full frame, hopefully they will announce a 24-70 and 70-200 f/2.8 to go along. these two set of zooms in this focal length and aperture are definitely needed for announcing a full frame and I'm sure Pentax wouldn't announce a full frame without announcing such lenses. I don't believe Pentax will release a FF until late 2010 or early 2011. For sure by early 2011, I know they won't release it early 2010 because they need more FF compatible lenses such as stated above, the 24-70 and 70-200 f/2.8. I am sure if they ever do announce a full frame in early 2010 without any announcements of the 24-70 or 70-200, they will announce them later but release it at the same time the full frame does.

First thing I would hope they would do before they make any further bigger decisions, such as announcing more lenses or announcing any new DSLR whether it's a full frame or not, is to find a solution to SDM and improve QC on the DA* 16-50. I do agree these problems are unacceptable and if they just keep announcing new things without fixing these current problems, then more problems will just tumble on top of them, and if not then it will leave people unhappy and curious which isn't a good thing.

One thing I do agree with you though is with the Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 being cheaper than all 3 FA Limited primes. I mean come on they are Made in Vietnam now and they're going to increase prices? That's just ridiculous when you compare it to the Nikon's "L" equivilant of Canon's that is Made in Japan, and not even that but Canon's L glass are also Made in Japan. While Pentax has no glass at the moment that is Made in Japan and they're on the move to "price-match" Canikon, sheesh at least get better QC and a proper repair factory before raising the bar on the prices.

Overall what I have to say is, don't lose your hopes yet. Just wait until late 2010 and see how it goes before you make the decision on any thoughts switching. I'm saying this is because right now everything is going quite well for Pentax, and a full frame announcement is just right there but isn't quite there at this moment, so if you want a full frame I know it will come. I also know things will improve for sure and without a doubt. But the real question is how much will it improve, will they be able to improve fixing the problems above, or will their rate of improvement not be that good? Because their rate of improvement on the current problems reflects how they feel about their customers and if they're just going to blow these problems off, then obviously the future FF release ain't going to be worth it as there would be signs of future problems.
TL;DR Way too much text dude...

Skimming...there's already another camera on the way this spring. The release of one lens doesn't mean a completely new system will come out within 50-some weeks.

If anyone feels they "need" FF...might as well go now to satisfy your equipment fetish. I would be realllllllllllllll surprised to see a FF Pentax cam in 10...almost to the point of coming out and saying "They won't release one in 10."
QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
@ KungPOW, perhaps D80/D90 + 50/1.4 would be a better idea. You can look for used FA* 28-70/2.8 lens which is a good lens though available only second hand and somewhat on the heavy side. I hear you and I had similar thought roughly a year ago when I also wanted to go full frame. However I should point out that a move from Pentax to either Nikon, Canon or Sony seems more like a horizontal move to me. From print quality point of view, Pentax Limited primes are playing very much equal to the top offerings from other companies, though of coure Nikon and Canon have more lenses in this category than just three (Pentax Limiteds).

I also don't trust SDM thus I don't have SDM lenses, only regular ones. And I bought FA 20/2.8 for purpose of:
1. Having a full frame super wide
2. Allowing my daughter use smaller and lighter DA 21 Ltd with her K10D as her wide lens.

I reckon that you and I may have similar views here the only difference being that I don't see myself shooting Nikon or Canon modern FF cameras. I held both D700 and 5DMkII and found both rather too big for my taste. For me the compactness and light weight of the gear are towards the top of priority list.
This is also my viewpoint.

When it comes down to it, how much quantifiable improvement does one get simply by getting a FF camera? Key word: Quantifiable.

Shooting with my K10D and grip in a "professional" setting is a joy...the handling and comfort is unparalleled. Carrying it around sucks...it's big and heavy.

And so are FF cams with f/2.8 lenses

12-22-2009, 10:10 PM   #167
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
OK, so you don't seem to get the analogy, instead you argue about insignificant details of it. Let me try another one, maybe this will work.

You buy a Canon printer for $300 thinking that cartridges will cost $15, in line with competition. Instead after 3 months Canon increases cartridge prices to $30 making them more expensive than competition. Your total cost of ownership just went up without any benefits to you. How do you feel about Canon's behavior? How likely are you to buy a Canon printer again?


P.S. If you want to misunderstand this one and further derail the discussion with insignificant details I have a few hints to make it easier:
a. Claim you don't spend enough on cartridges for that to matter
b. Claim you would just buy a lifetime supply of cartridges for $15 when you buy the printer
c. Claim you would never buy a Canon printer or any printer in the first place
d. Complain about how all printers are subsidized and cartridges overpriced
e. Claim you would buy 3rd party cartridges (despite there not being any due to lawsuits and proprietary connectors)
f. Claim that cameras and lenses aren't printers and cartridges so no analogy can be made between anything ever
g. Object that Canon would never do such a thing
I see your general point, but I don’t follow this notion, or comparison.
Things can change rapidly, I’m not guaranteed that a deal I can have now, will be the same -1 year from now.
A Canon printer cannot work without cartridges. A DSLR can work with a lens for a long time. Besides even if new lenses gets price hikes, I can still go third party as well. (Like I can do with my printer).

Pentax is no longer a family run company. They must now care a lot more about pricing and bottom line, than their former behavior, where they just produced some fun lenses and products; and did little to let people know about them.
Hoya found their profit pr. sold item too small. Pentax may still be below what Canon & Nikon will make pr. product, but much closer than before.
I don’t remember how many years it was last that prices saw a high rise. But when I bought my 43 limited around a year ago, I was surprised how cheap I found it. Now the 31 limited price is more in-line with Canon L grade lenses.




QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
People generally don't purchase these lenses at the same time as the camera.

Therefore, people generally expect to buy into a system and then keep spending more money on lenses over time, thus constituting a continued outlay of funds not unlike buying cartridges for a printer.
The UK currency took a big hit regarding currency. The UK prices for us in Europe, seem more okay, though higher than they used to be.
The U.S. stores buy in big supply, where European stores are more reluctant. And competition is more fierce in the US as well.
If Canon or Nikon people had waited regarding purchase of 300/2.8 IS, they may be in for a surprise with the new prices on them as well.


QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Thanks for the list, Richard. What else is new... The financial world is set up in such a way, that the rest of the world is financing the lifestyle of citizens in the US. It's been this way for a long time.
I’m not sure I understand this point, eventhough it might be outside the course of the thread, but how do you mean ?



QuoteOriginally posted by Damn Brit Quote
Just a point on that, I can only speak from my experience in Britain. Luxury items (what are considered non essential, lenses for example) and junk food are definitely cheaper in the US. Basic items (the essentials) like bread, milk, cereals tend to be more expensive in the US. In my experience the overall cost of living isn't much different between the two countries. People always make fuel price comparisons but that is smokescreen. Gas may be a third of the price in the US but you probably have to drive three times as far as in Britain. The vast majority in Britain can even walk to get their essentials, very few can do that in the US.
Good points



QuoteOriginally posted by jgredline Quote
Having read half the thread, I myself am not to surprised. I never thought I would see the day when I would have two systems, yet here I am. Pentax with the GLS fiasco, The SDM petition that I just signed that is going around, Pentax shutting down their official repair station and now repairs need to be sent to CRIS (which to me is like sending your new car to the garage on the corner, instead of the dealer)

As for Pentax, I will be keeping my K20D's because frankly, I love them. I love the little lenses and frankly the image quality is very good. No doubt the K20D has its short comings, but I have learned to over come them by using is fully manual.

I have a friend who has a K-X and what a wonderful cam it really is. But is is too late for me. I am done spending money with Pentax. I will enjoy what ever Pentax stuff I will keep, but they have lost me as a customer...Since purchasing my D700 a few months back, I have added a D300S for my APS-c needs. The most overwhelming part of adding a Nikon system is the abundance of Lenses.

As I have been visiting more and more Nikon Forums, I am amazed at how many members I know that I met in the Pentax world and how many have jumped ship. I imagine that it is the same in canon forums as well.
Hi Javier,
I hope we still get to see you around. Always a pleasure following your superb photography.
Good to hear that a lot of the old members can be rediscovered in the Canon & Nikon forums at DPR or other places. (I remember when some of them came back to the K10, having been using D200 or others).








QuoteOriginally posted by KungPOW Quote
2. No full frame anywhere on the horizon. Zip Zilch. nadda. With Nikon I can buy FF lenses with the plan to later get the FF camera I want. Eventually the cost of FF will be where the K-7 is now. And when that happens, I want to have the lenses. With Pentax, I need to surf e-bay for the very rare FA28, FA35 FA24 etc. Bleh. With Nikon, and Canon, I can just go to the store and buy the lens I want with that 5 year warenty. Additionally, I if I do want to buy from e-bay, or craig's list, or KEH, there are far more lenses available. But I digress. With Pentax, the FF options are limited. FA limited as a matter of fact. and it turns out the three FA LTDS cost more then the Nikon 24-70 2.8. (I know there are more FF lenses from Pentax, like the FA 50 and there are the DA*'s that work on a FF body.)

So, I asked myself, what would I rather have? What would work better for me?

A K-7 with the 31, 43 and 77 for $4060.00 CAD (priced from Aden camera)

or

A D300S with the 24-70 2.8 for $3400.00 CAD

For me, Nikon has the gear that works for me. They have the FF f2.8 zooms that Pentax does not. I don't see the Pentax price advantage anymore.
The Nikkor 24-70/2.8 is nice, but for me I use SR a lot in indoor low light shooting. The Canon 24-105/4 has IS, but it is on the slow side, and though it’s good, it is not extraordinary.

The Pentax FA* 28-70/2.8 is good, but hard to find and pricey.



QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
Finally, I don't think that sky is falling and that Pentax is loosing it. I've rather limited experience with other brands' gear through my friends and the quality assurance problems are there as well. Of course, given the difference in number of customers, the chances that you'd bump into Nikonian with AF problems are generally less, but the neighbor's grass is more or less of the same green level.
Yup, reading from PhotoZone, Canon and Nikon lenses have their fair share of built problems. (Doesn't of cause excuse Pentax for their problems)



QuoteOriginally posted by LeDave Quote
Now whatever Pentax is doing they are releasing a full frame. Hopefully when they do announce this full frame, hopefully they will announce a 24-70 and 70-200 f/2.8 to go along. these two set of zooms in this focal length and aperture are definitely needed for announcing a full frame and I'm sure Pentax wouldn't announce a full frame without announcing such lenses.
All other companies followed their announcement of high-end FF cams, with updated lenses as well. I’m sure we will see a new DFA 24-70 and 70-200 f/2.8, when Pentax goes FF
12-22-2009, 10:23 PM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
Hi Javier,
I hope we still get to see you around. Always a pleasure following your superb photography.
Good to hear that a lot of the old members can be rediscovered in the Canon & Nikon forums at DPR or other places. (I remember when some of them came back to the K10, having been using D200 or others).
Thank you, But I am not going anyplace. While I am enjoying my Nikon stuff, I am really in love with my K20D and it small lenses...It is my best street rig, that and my ME SUPER.
12-22-2009, 11:06 PM   #169
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QuoteOriginally posted by jgredline Quote
I never thought I would see the day when I would have two systems, yet here I am. Pentax with the GLS fiasco, The SDM petition that I just signed that is going around, Pentax shutting down their official repair station and now repairs need to be sent to CRIS (which to me is like sending your new car to the garage on the corner, instead of the dealer)
Unfortunately when it rains it pours. In addition to those issues Pentax needs to fix, the old SAFOX is really showing its age. People around here have been saying for some time, that they need to make an improvement to stay competitive. I posted this link in another thread, but I think it appropriate here:

[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngUcQUchHEU[/YT]

The more I watch it the more it bugs me. How can the K-7 be more than twice as slow in EV5 light, as a Canon 7D is in EV1 light, when the Canon is using a longer lens, that is only f/4?

Oh well. Hope you do stay around Javier.

12-22-2009, 11:28 PM   #170
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@ PentaxPoke: it looks impressive. However, personally I see very little meaning in it. I recall a test by TopGear where they drove Toyota Prius flat out around their test track and behind it the drove BMW M5 (if I remember correctly) matching Toyota Prius' speed quite leisurely. The outcome of the test was that M5 is in fact more frugal than Prius... Of course the point being made was different but please, let us not draw conclusions from comparing apples and oranges. If one would take Tokina 50-135/2.8 for Canon and compare it with Pentax DA* 50-135/2.8 on respective bodies, then it would have been more to the point, though even here the AF mechanisms would have been different, essentially negating the test. And again, I maintain (IMHO of course) that such tests need to be performed on statistically sensible number of samples. What is shown in the video is that that specific camera with these specific lenses focuses faster than another specific camera with some other specific lenses.

As for real life applications - it is a matter of how given photographer masters their gear learning to work with and around the limitations of their gear.
12-22-2009, 11:37 PM   #171
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Sorry Boris, but I believe it does have meaning, and this is about as apples to apples as one can get when comparing top of the line APS-C cameras and bodies. I don't believe your auto analogy applies here. When things don't come out the way we want, we blame the methodology. Even if the methodology is flawed, the AF performance is not even close! I can't say that my personal experience with my DA* 50-135 (before I sold it) and my 18-250 was much different than what is in that video. We can find posts here from when the k20 was coming out, hopeful of significant improvements in SAFOX. The k-7 is an improvement over the k20d, that is for sure, but it still lags the competition in this important area. If you don't like the methodology in that video, Pop Photo tested both cameras, and they show the K-7 AF speed starts to tank around EV5. By EV3 they are almost a factor of 2 different.

I recently had a chance to try someone's 7D with a ring-USM lens on it, and I was astonished at the speed and accuracy of the focus. We can question the methodology of that video all we want, but I have experienced it first hand. The k-7 was smaller, lighter, and a bit more intuitive (probably because I shoot Pentax) but the AF was not even in the same league.

Last edited by PentaxPoke; 12-22-2009 at 11:59 PM.
12-23-2009, 12:29 AM   #172
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@PentaxPoke: yes of course, like I said - it is my opinion and you're totally entitled to have yours different than mine. I wholeheartedly agree with you that when AF is essential (say, fast action shooting), Pentax cameras lag behind the competition. I do opine that K-7 is the best Pentax camera with regard to AF so far. I have seen that test you mentioned where K-7 starts to be really slow at and below EV5.

A friend of mine bought recently Canon 500D and EF-S 17-85/4-5.6 IS USM lens. It was actually due to my recommendation. In my (this time not so humble) opinion, his very sample is a lemon. I am yet to see a picture that is properly focused and therefore properly sharp made with this combo. Though admittedly 7D and 500D are not in the same class.

What I see as significant and definite improvement from K10D to K-7 (speaking only of one sample of each that I own) is ability of K-7 to focus where K10D couldn't and the precision. K-7 seems to me like way more precise. I will be hard pressed to qualify this and you could in principle use it as an argument against my reasoning. I don't mind that.

Ultimately, it is the specifics of one's style and shooting that matter. Indeed, I can easily believe that for some (and quite many too) cases Pentax gear will be simply unsuitable. As long as no projection is made onto others, I am prefectly content with that. My cameras and my lenses do satisfy my needs, though an occassional repair and tweaking is necessary.

I have installed Katz Eye focusing screen in both of my cameras for two purposes:
1. I have A 50/1.2 lens and I need manual focusing aids.
2. I do want to control the precision of AF at run-time and be able to apply manual touch up if I so desire.

Some may then argue that this is yet another evidence toward weakness of Pentax AF. I argue then, that it was done out of necessity of my style of shooting and of my specific eyesight problems.
12-23-2009, 02:52 AM   #173
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I kind of agree with PentaxPoke on the AF part, it's kind of embarassing when I fire up my super loud Tamron 28-75 f/2.8 and it just creeps for a few seconds before every shot. You can just hear it creep, tch-tch-tch-tch before locking in low-light. Sure this is a Tamron and not a Pentax lens as my previous Pentax lens tend to creep far less, but it's still annoying that they do it regardless.

12-23-2009, 04:05 AM   #174
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Odd, 'cause I've the same Tamron lens and in fact I find it rather quick focusing. Perhaps, I haven't witnessed truly fast AF ...
12-23-2009, 10:30 AM   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
Odd, 'cause I've the same Tamron lens and in fact I find it rather quick focusing. Perhaps, I haven't witnessed truly fast AF ...
Honestly that was my problem. I had only compared Pentax AF before having a chance to experience the 7D. I was blissfully ignorant.
12-23-2009, 11:09 AM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by jgredline Quote
. . .Pentax shutting down their official repair station and now repairs need to be sent to CRIS (which to me is like sending your new car to the garage on the corner, instead of the dealer)

. . .
Hysterical Or the guy down the street with a "shade tree" in his back yard!
12-23-2009, 02:01 PM   #177
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
Even if the methodology is flawed, the AF performance is not even close! I can't say that my personal experience with my DA* 50-135 (before I sold it) and my 18-250 was much different than what is in that video.
That being said, these two lenses are not speed daemons. I still have the 50-135 (sold the 18-250) it's one of the slowest I have, in comparison the D-FA 100 is much faster (!). My fastest lenses seem to be the DA L 18-55 and an old Sigma 28-105. The slowest would be the 55-300mm.

The biggest slow down for the Pentax AF is the small checks it does at the end of the operation. It's also apparent in the video. It goes relatively fast close to the focus point then does 2-3 small adjustments that kill performance. The K-7 does fewer adjustments than the previous Pentax bodies (K-m excepted) but on occasions it still hunts too much.

But this is only AF-S... It's not too bad in real world use IMHO. But when you have to use AF-C, this is where Pentax feels much behind and is frustrating to use, even on the K-7.
12-23-2009, 02:09 PM   #178
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In fact, in the video the 50-135 is not behaving as it should. It stops few times on the way, but it's not the typical hunting - which happens near the correct distance.
I don't remember the 50-135 I've played with behaving like this. My 60-250 certainly doesn't do it (even then, is not as fast as the EF 70-200 - but still decent).
12-23-2009, 03:39 PM   #179
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
In fact, in the video the 50-135 is not behaving as it should. It stops few times on the way, but it's not the typical hunting - which happens near the correct distance.
I don't remember the 50-135 I've played with behaving like this. My 60-250 certainly doesn't do it (even then, is not as fast as the EF 70-200 - but still decent).
It doesn't look like it is hunting to me. I remember my 50-135 behaved that way in indoor shots. It would sort of "sneak up" on the focus in short bursts near the end. You may not notice it unless the focus ring has to move a long way. Normally it is closer.
12-23-2009, 11:01 PM   #180
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
Honestly that was my problem. I had only compared Pentax AF before having a chance to experience the 7D. I was blissfully ignorant.
Ignorance is bliss indeed. Let's say that so far my ignorance wasn't much in a way of taking pictures, including also the allegedly problematic AF of Pentax cameras.

But, yes, many indicate that Pentax has rather weak AF system compared to its rivals. Which, I reckon is a good thing, because if Pentax cameras were perfect, it would be so boring, don't you think?
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