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12-27-2009, 04:59 AM   #211
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There is a lot of sense in there Boris. A general statement when spoken is often taken as a statement of a literal fact when written down. Many people (including myself) write on forums as they would like to speak but stripped of the authors tone and facial expression the subtleties and nuances that indicate the degree or intensity of meaning are lost and this is where the difficulties begin. We can then mix in the problem that when not directly confronting other people we tend to allow the aggressiveness in our nature a much fuller reign which in turn draws an impolite response and so on. Humankind evolved to communicate directly and in various ways other than speech and it is the loss of the secondary signals that can cause so much grief as well as the mix of of cultures and competence in any one particular language.

Still, I feel that over the last couple of years people are getting to realise the shortcomings of electronic communication such as the net for the arguments do not tend to be as vicious as they were three or four years ago. On the other hand I have noticed a tendency for 'pack hunting' and low level bullying of posters that might disagree with a loose grouping of other contributors. Canon, I'm afraid to say (and have pointed out elsewhere) do seem to have a following that cannot cope with the slightest disrespect which turns me off the company as much as any problems associated with the product and the Pro/amateur divide was always a source of conflict although that has dissipated of late. However, by far the worse case of unmoderated group thuggery that I've come across is here-

Whale Wars

Try going on the forum and expressing an opinion in favour of the conservationists. Discovery Channel should pull it or police it, and it is to their detriment that they do neither.

Justin.


Last edited by justinr; 12-27-2009 at 11:35 AM.
12-27-2009, 06:15 AM   #212
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
Indeed. Such a statement would not hold water at any time. But just like you have a problem with this, mine would be reading that "AF system of Pentax is terribly outdated"... Such a statement would either mean that the person who says that is passing the word from mouth to mouth (or from forum to forum) adding some 'juice' in the process or that they actually are very inexperienced photographer.
Gee Boris, I've haven't been accused of being an inexperienced photographer for 30 years or so.
12-27-2009, 07:03 AM   #213
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There are two alternatives in Boris statement, you now. Take your pick :P
12-27-2009, 07:07 AM   #214
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Gee Boris, I've haven't been accused of being an inexperienced photographer for 30 years or so.
But then again I happen to know you (unfortunately virtually) for quite some time and I fail to recall whether you ever complained about Pentax AF to the point that you would switch systems just because of that. Further, I am yet to see a photograph that you produced, kind sir, that is not in proper focus in a way that evidences the failure of your camera automatics.



12-28-2009, 08:36 PM   #215
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QuoteOriginally posted by heliphoto Quote
I agree with you Bokehboy, but I think I can explain why you'll keep seeing these treads for the next 20 years too (except of course that Pentax might bring out the next world leading camera in a month or two, and also, who really believes there will be anything like SLRs in 20 years)... To the outsider, new to DSLRs, all these SLR cameras look alike (at least they did to me a few years ago when I was researching what to replace my AE-1 with), and if you believe these type of threads, there are no advantages to any particular brand (note how many people in this thread have said that Pentax AF is up to any action shooting - as good as Nikon or Canon). With that in mind many people choose the feature set that most appeals to them in their price range, and based on that Pentax is an appealing brand.

Rightfully so, as they are great cameras in their class, however, some people (like me) aren't good enough photographers to use Pentax for action shooting (limited by the AF, ISO, FPS to name a few acronyms), so when we find out that other brands actually offer a distinct advantage in those areas we need a crutch in some of us feel betrayed by the brand we chose (I didn't feel betrayed actually, but I did feel it was time to move on). We can't be happy with our Pentax camera's faults knowing that our friends, the Joneses, are getting sharp shots with their C. or N. gear while we cannot due to our (our camera's?) failings... I sold all my Pentax stuff (well, I still have a P3n and a Spotmatic) and went to Canon and couldn't be happier .

Note, it's not the camera brand that is better... I won't say that switching from a K-7 to a Rebel would be an upgrade (I've never shot a rebel so I don't know (I bet AF would be better on the rebel ))... the difference is that the other brands offer an upgrade path - there are camera's higher in the lineup which offer higher performance than the top Pentax model.
And there cost raises it's ugly head although Pentax is catching up there as well.
12-28-2009, 08:53 PM   #216
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
You just can't put this with a mechanical logical sound, vast majority people have emotional attachment to Pentax brand. They at least love Pentax glass (love is an emotion) . They just wanted their *beloved* should be better, thats all. Thats why they seem like criticizing

Some Pentax lovers truly exaggerate this criticism stuff and loose the thread. Such as ricehigh and aristophanes. Most are not, they are in the middle

So said it all.

No, it wasn't. I wish K-7 had the Conan 7D resolution. :jumpurp:
You speak without knowing me and pick as you wish from my post. Use the entire quote. There are two DSLR's, one 35mm SLR and one point and shoot in my house. The DSLR's and SLR are Pentax and unless Pentax goes out of business I will remain a very dedicated Pentax fan. The point and shoot is Canon.

I buy Pentax DSLR/SLR exclusively. I am simply saying that I accept their limitations and do not complain about them. I find ways around them. My friend has a Canon. We compare shots a lot and I assure you that both cameras have specific things they do well that the other one does not do well. You will find very few people as devoted to Pentax as I have been over the decades. That having been said if I were a professional photographer, as is my brother, I would own Pentax, Canon, Nikon, Olympus and probably Leica as he does. he will tell you straight up that no matter what you cannot get more for your dollar with any brand other than with Pentax.

You talk about me being logical and others being more emotional about their Pentax. Well, you can have my Pentax when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
12-28-2009, 10:13 PM   #217
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bokehboy Quote
My friend has a Canon. We compare shots a lot and I assure you that both cameras have specific things they do well that the other one does not do well. You will find very few people as devoted to Pentax as I have been over the decades.
I have been quite loyal to Pentax over the decades as well, and I can understand the emotional attachment. I am intrigued by your comment above. Can you give us some examples of something that a Pentax DSLR can do, that a Canon does not do well? We are quite aware of what Canon does well that Pentax doesn't (Mainly AF due to both SAFOX and SDM)
12-28-2009, 10:15 PM   #218
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
I wish K-7 had the Conan 7D resolution. :jumpurp:
I don't (wish that)...

12-29-2009, 04:12 AM   #219
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Whole articles as you wish, so be it.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bokehboy Quote
I tried my best to read the entire thread but just cannot take it any more.

Another Pentax doesn't make this, that or the other thing for my purposes so Pentax is dead thread. I am not elderly but would you care to guess how much of this I have heard over the decades?

Pentax is Pentax. Period. They are not Canon, Nikon or any other brand other than Pentax. Should anyone buy any given brand and expect it to have the same specs/performance as the other brands, well, there is something wrong with you and you will be disappointed. A camera is a tool and you pick the one or ones that you think suits you best.

I have been using exclusively Pentax for almost 30 years. In that time I have heard the death cry for this company more than once, I assure you. 20 years from now Pentax will still be in business and if I am still around I will be buying their gear. I may buy other makes as well but I will not jump ship on Pentax. IMHO that is a true Pentaxian!

Just my 2 cents worth.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bokehboy Quote
You speak without knowing me and pick as you wish from my post. Use the entire quote. There are two DSLR's, one 35mm SLR and one point and shoot in my house. The DSLR's and SLR are Pentax and unless Pentax goes out of business I will remain a very dedicated Pentax fan. The point and shoot is Canon.

I buy Pentax DSLR/SLR exclusively. I am simply saying that I accept their limitations and do not complain about them. I find ways around them. My friend has a Canon. We compare shots a lot and I assure you that both cameras have specific things they do well that the other one does not do well. You will find very few people as devoted to Pentax as I have been over the decades. That having been said if I were a professional photographer, as is my brother, I would own Pentax, Canon, Nikon, Olympus and probably Leica as he does. he will tell you straight up that no matter what you cannot get more for your dollar with any brand other than with Pentax.

You talk about me being logical and others being more emotional about their Pentax. Well, you can have my Pentax when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.


We can see you are emotional for Pentax but you are suggesting some people "take it or leave it" to whom wishes Pentax should be better and criticizing it. Wasn't camera just a tool, as you stated (in red)? Why are you taking to the grave? This seemed a bit contradicting to me. But not an issue.

What I mean is IMO for instance ultimate examples of ricehigh and aristophanes will go to grave with their whole Pentax collections. They are not taking nor leaving it. You see? Most are more reasonable but still criticizing, and they have rights to do so.

So my point is= Let them compare&criticize. Actually this is one of the this Forums point.

Last edited by cbaytan; 12-29-2009 at 04:18 AM.
12-29-2009, 04:27 AM   #220
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
I don't (wish that)...
Actually Canon used a different micro-lens technique on 7D, I am wondering what is the upper MP limit for APS-C, without falling into terrible diffraction issue. ( with better IQ I mean).
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12-29-2009, 04:37 AM   #221
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I am wondering what is the upper MP limit for APS-C, without falling into terrible diffraction issue. ( with better IQ I mean).

Heavy going at times but you may find the answer here-


Physical Limits in Digital Photography

Justin.
12-29-2009, 05:03 AM   #222
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QuoteOriginally posted by justinr Quote
I am wondering what is the upper MP limit for APS-C, without falling into terrible diffraction issue. ( with better IQ I mean).

Heavy going at times but you may find the answer here-

Physical Limits in Digital Photography
.
So, my understanding upper limit is 24MP for a FF camera, 24/1.5= 16MP for an APS-C camera, K-7 is 15MP is but Canon 7D has 18MP. So more MP's than 16 MP is just helping out for blurring effect of the AA and IR filter, it's top of my head, maybe falconeye can answer that.
12-29-2009, 05:14 AM   #223
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Actually Canon used a different micro-lens technique on 7D, I am wondering what is the upper MP limit for APS-C, without falling into terrible diffraction issue. ( with better IQ I mean).
Can you please describe in very simple terms the difference that should be seen from looking at these pictures? Without disrespect all I see is the same picture but displayed with slightly different aspect ratio...
12-29-2009, 05:36 AM   #224
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
Can you please describe in very simple terms the difference that should be seen from looking at these pictures? Without disrespect all I see is the same picture but displayed with slightly different aspect ratio...
Basically we wish to see more resolving power from more MP's that means power of the separation of thinner and more thinner lines.

Diffraction is dispersing or "diffract" of the light when squeezed through a small hole.

Diffraction Limited Photography: Pixel Size, Aperture and Airy Disks

But AA filter is another limiting factor for the sensors resolving power that meant to be protecting us from moire effect. You can understand here: (Moire is the color bands you can see on the second picture)

Nikon D200HR

Results are below one is 15MP K-7 other is 18MP Canon 7D guess which is which.

I hope these answer your question.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/attachments/pentax-dslr-discussion/40026d...-k-7-brush-jpg

Sorry I can't put an image that I uploaded before at a different thread, Adam is working on it, so please open above lin on a different window and compare.
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Canon EOS 7D  Photo 
12-29-2009, 06:34 AM   #225
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Thanks, cbaytan. My understanding is that such comparisons ought to be performed with exactly the same lens, which is of course not easy comparing across system boundaries. So, 3rd party lenses have to be used. Also preferrably the same RAW converter and/or in camera JPEG has to be used to eliminate certain variables.

But if I understand you correctly, you say that 7D does allow to use higher resolution optics due to its higher pixel count. Perhaps this is so. Again, the question is - what is the goal. Having made A3 prints from *istD I reckon that 15MP of K-7 are good enough. Naturally, more pixels would mean more flexibility while cropping (with *istD I had virtually no such flexibility), so indeed more pixels is probably better. But then again noise comes into play... Oh well, I reckon such a talk had taken place more times than individual pixels of any of the cameras in question.
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