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12-22-2009, 12:42 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by DonDouglas Quote
Pentax, having lost their 35mm market position in the 1960s, concentrated on medium format. They made a system which was competitive with Hasselblad, Mamiya and the rest in terms if IQ, but with ergonomics which were more comfortable for the person used to 35mm and produced at a price point which was far enough below the other MF brands to attract people upgrading from 35mm.

...

I know that everyone here already knows all this. What surprises me is that so many of you expect it to be different.
I didn't know that!

12-22-2009, 02:36 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Did you see this comparision between 5D Mark II & Two medium format dslrs?
DXOMark?
Instead of thinking "well, the 5DMkII is up there - it must be, look at the numbers" I'm more likely to say "then, they're missing something. A lot, actually"
IMHO DXOMark is like Whetstone and Dhrystone were in IT/computers. Good for discussing on internet forums, but what's the relevance in the real life?
12-23-2009, 05:42 AM   #18
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Its one piece of data

Its one piece of data.

You got a link to show meduim format dslrs compared to full frame smaller format dslrs?

I guess we wait for Pemtax to launch 645D and many people here will buy one and make those comparisions.

645D is due in first quarter 2010, possibly just 9 days away

At most 99 days away, the last day of first quarter 2010

I look foward to all the 645D owners hands on reports less than 100 days away.
12-23-2009, 08:46 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by frank Quote
So the world is ending by 2012?
Might make a clever ad campaign, "Just in time for the end of the world! Don't miss the action. Get the new Pentax FF!"

12-23-2009, 09:02 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
If a photographer absolutely needs full frame then he or she's likely already bought a Nikon or Canon.
Bingo! The only real loyalty that professional photographers have is, "Can I meet my clients' need with this camera?" If the answer is 'yes', then they don't spend money that they don't have to spend. If the answer is 'no', then they buy whatever they need to get paid.
12-23-2009, 09:40 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Its one piece of data.

You got a link to show meduim format dslrs compared to full frame smaller format dslrs?

I guess we wait for Pemtax to launch 645D and many people here will buy one and make those comparisions.

645D is due in first quarter 2010, possibly just 9 days away

At most 99 days away, the last day of first quarter 2010

I look foward to all the 645D owners hands on reports less than 100 days away.
Go over to GetDPI forum http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/index.php and read all the postings from commercial or fine art photographers who use both full frame DLSR and medium format digital as well as film MF and LF. In real life situations there is supposedly a huge difference in the results and I doubt that so many professionals would spend or waste their monies if not the case.

This winter my wife was working on a project that she shot with both MF film and a D3. No contest and hence only the scanned film images were used for THIS project. And this was just with scanning on a Nikon scanner not a drum scan. MF digital would may have been used if we had that availalble. Tonality and the ability to enlarge to a greater extent are two things that may not show up on a comparison test but will when working day after day with these different tools. Nikon themselves claim that the D3X is "approaching" Medium format quality and if they say approaching not reaching it in their ads then they are not there yet.

Seems like you think that a day or two is adequate to be able to detemine what a system is capable of doing. If and when Pentax releases the 645D I am sure that there will be many experienced and qualified professional photographers discussing it on GetDPI and similar forums.

Last edited by redrockcoulee; 12-23-2009 at 09:42 PM. Reason: spelling error on the name of the forum
12-24-2009, 05:31 AM   #22
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Medium format film is superior

Medium format film is superior and I'll guess superior to medium format dslrs with CCD sensors also.

Heres direct link to getdpi medium format forum:

Medium Format Systems and Digital Backs - The GetDPI Photography Forums


So is Nikon D3x is approaching medium format film quality or approaching medium format dslr CCD sensor quality?

I'll assume we all know film image quality is superior to digital, yet we use digitals for a variety of reasons inspite of lessor image quality. If we all wanted the very best images wouldn't we all be burning film with medium format cameras?

Heres a link to DxO comparing 50mp Hassy vs. 5D Mark II vs. Nikon D3x

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Compare-cameras/...(brand3)/Nikon

This comparision above is a $25,000 Hassy versus $2700 Canon consumer full frame versus $7500 Nikon Probody flagship.


And to round this out, here's same $25,000 50mp Hassy vs $2,700 21mp Canon vs $1,000 Pentax K-7:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Compare-cameras/...brand3)/Pentax

Merry Christmas Eve !!!

Last edited by Samsungian; 12-24-2009 at 06:05 AM. Reason: added links
12-24-2009, 07:56 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Medium format film is superior and I'll guess superior to medium format dslrs with CCD sensors also.

Heres direct link to getdpi medium format forum:

Medium Format Systems and Digital Backs - The GetDPI Photography Forums


So is Nikon D3x is approaching medium format film quality or approaching medium format dslr CCD sensor quality?

I'll assume we all know film image quality is superior to digital, yet we use digitals for a variety of reasons inspite of lessor image quality. If we all wanted the very best images wouldn't we all be burning film with medium format cameras?

Heres a link to DxO comparing 50mp Hassy vs. 5D Mark II vs. Nikon D3x

Compare cameras

This comparision above is a $25,000 Hassy versus $2700 Canon consumer full frame versus $7500 Nikon Probody flagship.


And to round this out, here's same $25,000 50mp Hassy vs $2,700 21mp Canon vs $1,000 Pentax K-7:

Compare cameras

Merry Christmas Eve !!!
As some one who shoots mostly film I would never say that film is superior to digital in all ways anymore than digital is superior to film. If shooting in low light and in colour I would choose digital over 35mm film however shooting landscapes in black and white and on a tripod yes there are definete advantages of film over digital..I can shoot MF or LF with equipment costing a fraction of the cost and can print cheaper. Just because some wedding photographers like shooting film better than digital due to what they think is a more natural rendition of skin tones does not make film better for wildlife or sports photography. Context specific.

The link you provided is useless for deciding on which camera or format is best. It is like comparing vehicles based on price, horsepower and braking distance when the vehicles in question are a semi, a mini van and a sports car; if you need to haul a load of steel or 6 passengers you make the choice based on what the vehciles can do in the real world. Medium format sensors are less sensitive than smaller sensors but provide an increase in tonality and can be enlarged to a much greater size, and 35mm cameras are more portable than large format ones, but those are not means to test for superiority unless you need to shoot in low light or cannot shoot on a tripod. If I could affford any camera in the world and was to shoot hockey games I would pick a different system than if I was shooting product shoots that are to occupy a two page spread in a magazine or landscapes.

I would assume Nikon was referring to medium format sensors as it was a promotion for a new product that they hope takes sells from MF digital ones. I am sure that just like in the 35mm world that digital and film each have their advantages and disadvantages. Some of the posters on GetDPI have suggested for casual users to stay with their film outfits and for others to go to digital depending on the persons needs and means. There should not be dogma about digital versus film or full frame versus cropped frame. For me a cropped frame digital is more useful than a full frame and for others it is the other way around. Nothing wrong with that. If I wanted the higher quality digital for my shooting I would go with a medium format back and they can be bought for half the price of the one you linked to brand new and 2009 releases from several companies. There are reasons that companies make more than one kind of product and why professionals choice more than one type of system. A carpenter's tool box is not the same as an electican's is it. The Pentax MF digital is going to be used by people who may already be using a full frame non Pentax same as was done in the film only days.

12-24-2009, 09:53 AM   #24
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Cameras are not cars, Cars are not cameras...

Cameras are not cars, Cars are not cameras...

Its so common to see the inevitable cameras and cars comparisions in numerous forms I visit.

How about making cameras comparisions based on cameras? Then how does DxO stack up?

My brand new car cost me the same money the Hassy 50mp body only Medium format costs today. My car safely takes me to places to shoot. It carries my gear and my wife to desinations and will do so for 7 years 100,000 miles per bumper to bumper warranty. Or if I bought a 50mp Hassy I'd have no Turbo Subaru for past 5 years to enjoyably travel to various National Parks in.

For right person medium format digital makes perfect sense. In 2010 I'll bet many have moved on to other brands to make their living over the past 6 years we've waited for the often announced vapourware 645D to materialize.

For me $25,000 + for a 50mp Hassy is way over priced. Just like $3,000 and up lady purses are way over priced. Many people earned a living on an entire photography system of gear inhand that may have cost them less than the 50mp hassy body only costs today. Some pros are making a living having that never shot film. Now if current 645D is 1,000,000 yen then maybe I'll say same, $11,000 for a long overdue to market 645D is way overpriced (for me). However, the longer Pentax waited and put off 645D the better the 645D specs become.

I know most everyone here is gleefully waiting for 645D so I assume most people here will buy one or two, right?

It doesn't appear to me John Shaw uses film thesedays. He's using a pair of D3 and not D3x. Here's his simple gear list:

My Photo Equipment


QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
As some one who shoots mostly film I would never say that film is superior to digital in all ways anymore than digital is superior to film. If shooting in low light and in colour I would choose digital over 35mm film however shooting landscapes in black and white and on a tripod yes there are definete advantages of film over digital..I can shoot MF or LF with equipment costing a fraction of the cost and can print cheaper. Just because some wedding photographers like shooting film better than digital due to what they think is a more natural rendition of skin tones does not make film better for wildlife or sports photography. Context specific.

The link you provided is useless for deciding on which camera or format is best. It is like comparing vehicles based on price, horsepower and braking distance when the vehicles in question are a semi, a mini van and a sports car; if you need to haul a load of steel or 6 passengers you make the choice based on what the vehciles can do in the real world. Medium format sensors are less sensitive than smaller sensors but provide an increase in tonality and can be enlarged to a much greater size, and 35mm cameras are more portable than large format ones, but those are not means to test for superiority unless you need to shoot in low light or cannot shoot on a tripod. If I could affford any camera in the world and was to shoot hockey games I would pick a different system than if I was shooting product shoots that are to occupy a two page spread in a magazine or landscapes.

I would assume Nikon was referring to medium format sensors as it was a promotion for a new product that they hope takes sells from MF digital ones. I am sure that just like in the 35mm world that digital and film each have their advantages and disadvantages. Some of the posters on GetDPI have suggested for casual users to stay with their film outfits and for others to go to digital depending on the persons needs and means. There should not be dogma about digital versus film or full frame versus cropped frame. For me a cropped frame digital is more useful than a full frame and for others it is the other way around. Nothing wrong with that. If I wanted the higher quality digital for my shooting I would go with a medium format back and they can be bought for half the price of the one you linked to brand new and 2009 releases from several companies. There are reasons that companies make more than one kind of product and why professionals choice more than one type of system. A carpenter's tool box is not the same as an electican's is it. The Pentax MF digital is going to be used by people who may already be using a full frame non Pentax same as was done in the film only days.
12-24-2009, 10:26 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Cameras are not cars, Cars are not cameras...

Its so common to see the inevitable cameras and cars comparisions in numerous forms I visit.

How about making cameras comparisions based on cameras? Then how does DxO stack up?

My brand new car cost me the same money the Hassy 50mp body only Medium format costs today. My car safely takes me to places to shoot. It carries my gear and my wife to desinations and will do so for 7 years 100,000 miles per bumper to bumper warranty. Or if I bought a 50mp Hassy I'd have no Turbo Subaru for past 5 years to enjoyably travel to various National Parks in.

For right person medium format digital makes perfect sense. In 2010 I'll bet many have moved on to other brands to make their living over the past 6 years we've waited for the often announced vapourware 645D to materialize.

For me $25,000 + for a 50mp Hassy is way over priced. Just like $3,000 and up lady purses are way over priced. Many people earned a living on an entire photography system of gear inhand that may have cost them less than the 50mp hassy body only costs today. Some pros are making a living having that never shot film. Now if current 645D is 1,000,000 yen then maybe I'll say same, $11,000 for a long overdue to market 645D is way overpriced (for me). However, the longer Pentax waited and put off 645D the better the 645D specs become.

I know most everyone here is gleefully waiting for 645D so I assume most people here will buy one or two, right?

It doesn't appear to me John Shaw uses film thesedays. He's using a pair of D3 and not D3x. Here's his simple gear list:

My Photo Equipment
You are right and I am wrong. Pentax is wrong, John Sexton and Michael Kenna are wrong. All the professional photographers using MF and LF film or digital are wrong and you are right. When my wife made 60 inch wide prints she should have looked up to see what camera has the highest ISO instead of testing to see which one produced the most pleasing prints. And it was not the full frame digital. And 98% of her photography is digital so it was not DOGMA that her decision was made on. Rob Skoetch uses digital and film so guess he is only half wrong.

The world only needs a Pentax full frame digital camera to meet all the needs of all the photographers in the world. I was totally unaware of this. By the way for some people the D3 is a better camera than the D3X.

I am off for the holidays and this conversatation if done as well, I only intended to show you where you could go to see for yourself why some people need or use digital medium format cameras rather than just looking at some numbers that are only useful if comparing the same thing such as Phase One and Hasselblad or Canon and Nikon. I really do not understand how a move from APS-C to full frame improves a camera but then moving up to medium format is a waste other than it is not what you want. I did not look or ask for a discussion on film or that you can afford a much newer car than I can (12 years and 22 years old and still safe and get me there too but has no bearing on what someone else needs to complete a photographic assignemnt). I do hope that Pentax is sucessful in producing and selling the 645D and that they continue to make better and better DSLRs and if they are or are not full frame will depend on Pentax (Hoya) and not what I want or think others need or do not need.

Everyone have a safe and happy holiday and make some great memories and great images
12-24-2009, 10:38 AM   #26
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Merry Christmas Eve !

Merry Christmas Eve !

Agreed, D3 makes more sense than D3x. I read some Nikon owners who were ticked at the $8,000 launch price. One of those examples where its not just the cost of glass camera makers profit on. No way its a $4,000 better camera over D3, for me. I'm happily pluggin along with D700 bought for 1/4 cost of D3x. Or 1/5th the cost of vapoureware 645D.

Happy Holidays, I'm back to party planning central...

QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
You are right and I am wrong. Pentax is wrong, John Sexton and Michael Kenna are wrong. All the professional photographers using MF and LF film or digital are wrong and you are right. When my wife made 60 inch wide prints she should have looked up to see what camera has the highest ISO instead of testing to see which one produced the most pleasing prints. And it was not the full frame digital. And 98% of her photography is digital so it was not DOGMA that her decision was made on. Rob Skoetch uses digital and film so guess he is only half wrong.

The world only needs a Pentax full frame digital camera to meet all the needs of all the photographers in the world. I was totally unaware of this. By the way for some people the D3 is a better camera than the D3X.

I am off for the holidays and this conversatation if done as well, I only intended to show you where you could go to see for yourself why some people need or use digital medium format cameras rather than just looking at some numbers that are only useful if comparing the same thing such as Phase One and Hasselblad or Canon and Nikon. I really do not understand how a move from APS-C to full frame improves a camera but then moving up to medium format is a waste other than it is not what you want. I did not look or ask for a discussion on film or that you can afford a much newer car than I can (12 years and 22 years old and still safe and get me there too but has no bearing on what someone else needs to complete a photographic assignemnt). I do hope that Pentax is sucessful in producing and selling the 645D and that they continue to make better and better DSLRs and if they are or are not full frame will depend on Pentax (Hoya) and not what I want or think others need or do not need.

Everyone have a safe and happy holiday and make some great memories and great images
12-24-2009, 11:26 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
As some one who shoots mostly film I would never say that film is superior to digital in all ways anymore than digital is superior to film. If shooting in low light and in colour I would choose digital over 35mm film however shooting landscapes in black and white and on a tripod yes there are definete advantages of film over digital..I can shoot MF or LF with equipment costing a fraction of the cost and can print cheaper. Just because some wedding photographers like shooting film better than digital due to what they think is a more natural rendition of skin tones does not make film better for wildlife or sports photography. Context specific.

The link you provided is useless for deciding on which camera or format is best. It is like comparing vehicles based on price, horsepower and braking distance when the vehicles in question are a semi, a mini van and a sports car; if you need to haul a load of steel or 6 passengers you make the choice based on what the vehciles can do in the real world. Medium format sensors are less sensitive than smaller sensors but provide an increase in tonality and can be enlarged to a much greater size, and 35mm cameras are more portable than large format ones, but those are not means to test for superiority unless you need to shoot in low light or cannot shoot on a tripod. If I could affford any camera in the world and was to shoot hockey games I would pick a different system than if I was shooting product shoots that are to occupy a two page spread in a magazine or landscapes.

I would assume Nikon was referring to medium format sensors as it was a promotion for a new product that they hope takes sells from MF digital ones. I am sure that just like in the 35mm world that digital and film each have their advantages and disadvantages. Some of the posters on GetDPI have suggested for casual users to stay with their film outfits and for others to go to digital depending on the persons needs and means. There should not be dogma about digital versus film or full frame versus cropped frame. For me a cropped frame digital is more useful than a full frame and for others it is the other way around. Nothing wrong with that. If I wanted the higher quality digital for my shooting I would go with a medium format back and they can be bought for half the price of the one you linked to brand new and 2009 releases from several companies. There are reasons that companies make more than one kind of product and why professionals choice more than one type of system. A carpenter's tool box is not the same as an electican's is it. The Pentax MF digital is going to be used by people who may already be using a full frame non Pentax same as was done in the film only days.

Some of the most sensible things I've read on this forum for awhile!
12-26-2009, 10:20 PM   #28
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The FF pentax will be an exciting thing when it happens.But there has been alot of predictions when that will be.2010,2011,2012,2015.I just can't see pentax rushing into this when they are on a good wicket with the likes of the K7,DA lenses and all the optional accessories that go with it.Like I said in the FF in 2010 thread,it will happen when it happensaand enjoy the current Pentax equipment that you have.
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