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12-24-2009, 04:22 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by SCGushue Quote
... So, why not market in the US.... or is it to secure a higher profit margin by selling only through the Japanese market?
A quick run through of the number of posts complaining of how expensive Pentax gear is right now is perhaps anecdotal indication the US consumer may not be the purchasing powerhouse it once was. Seriously, the average US consumer has a lot on their plate right now, (job insecurity, high personal debt, housing foreclosure risk, a relatively low rate of savings). Compare that with say the average Japanese or Chinese who save quite a lot and you get a very different picture of purchasing ability.

12-24-2009, 04:34 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
There are TWO MF cameras. One is ready, the second is in work.
.

Are you sure thats not a translation misunderstanding?
12-24-2009, 05:46 PM   #18
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Just for clarification: he did not say that there are 2 MF cameras in the works here. What he said was that the 2 camera line-up strategy (K-7 & K-x) will be maintained in that MF development will not interfere with the replacements for these 2 cameras.

He said repeatedly that they would rather do MF than FF. It will be ready for show at Photokina. He wants to price 645D in a range where high end amateurs can justify paying. He says that the basic concept from the beginning was that this was not specifically intended for pros. They don't want to be a follower. They are developing "several" MF lenses, and he hints that they will be packaged with a body. The "depth" of dynamic range cannot be reproduced by smaller sensors. He didn't want to comment in regards to SR. This is their way of going to larger sensors. A rather risky, but perhaps shrewdly calculated move, one can say.

What I think he is implying is that K-7 and K-x replacements will have APS-C sensors. There will not be FF before MF is out. Also, no EVF.

Last edited by Nubi; 12-24-2009 at 05:48 PM. Reason: Gee, no FF. I suppose I will buy 645D then.
12-24-2009, 06:11 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
A quick run through of the number of posts complaining of how expensive Pentax gear is right now is perhaps anecdotal indication the US consumer may not be the purchasing powerhouse it once was. Seriously, the average US consumer has a lot on their plate right now, (job insecurity, high personal debt, housing foreclosure risk, a relatively low rate of savings). Compare that with say the average Japanese or Chinese who save quite a lot and you get a very different picture of purchasing ability.
I believe current high price of Pentax gear is partly due to very strong Japanese yen and weak US$. As for economy, Japanese economy always trails the American one and its very very bad right now. I just read a news that the average income of Japanese people in 30s dropped like 20k USD in 10 years! Less people can afford to get married or have a baby, let alone buying expensive cameras for hobby.
Chinese people? Yes, there are many rich chinese people all over the world. But most of them seem to drive Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, not Mazda or Mitsubishi

12-24-2009, 07:31 PM   #20
ogl
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Are you sure thats not a translation misunderstanding?
It's not from translation.
12-24-2009, 10:21 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I don't see such thing. No any word.
You will not see it posted in this particular article. Suffice it to say, that some time back, perhaps a year or so, when they spoke of resurrecting the camera, the position was that it would not be marketed outside of Japan.


That made little sense to me. But that appeared to be their position at the time. I followed the early threads and just figured that if I had to obtain said camera from the motherland, so be it.

Stephen
12-24-2009, 10:31 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
That was not a Hoya statement but a Pentax US rep statement who thought that they could only sell around 200 bodies in the US. Generally, Pentax reps know less than we do, and as this was some time ago you can be sure he hadn't the faintest idea of the 645D's price....

Thanks Pal,

That was one of the quotes I remember hearing. Perhaps it was in error that I attributed it to Hoya. Even though they own Pentax apparently the memo never got to Pentax USA.

And unfortunately, many of the Pentax reps that I have come to work with over the past 30 years are gone. It is much harder to get accurate insight on trends.

My problem with HOYA is that while I think they may be responsible for some of Pentax's recent improvements, they always seem to be talking out of both sides of their mouth.

I like their philosophy, if there is one , on the 645D.

Stephen
12-24-2009, 10:42 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
A quick run through of the number of posts complaining of how expensive Pentax gear is right now is perhaps anecdotal indication the US consumer may not be the purchasing powerhouse it once was. Seriously, the average US consumer has a lot on their plate right now, (job insecurity, high personal debt, housing foreclosure risk, a relatively low rate of savings). Compare that with say the average Japanese or Chinese who save quite a lot and you get a very different picture of purchasing ability.
There is no doubt that there are problems within the USA. But for roughly 90% of the people there is still an income and for many people life has not really changed. And by numbers alone (roughly 300,000,000 people) there is still plenty of market driven purchases to be made here.

The most heavily leveraged developed country in the world right now is Japan. Their debt load per capita is the by far the highest and the government is certainly feeling the pinch of their high debt load.

I might point out that many people, here and abroad, do responsibly handle money and can weather downturns such as these. Fortunatley, many that were not financially responsible are seeing the light and savings at a much greater rate here. Which is a good thing for the most part.

Stephen

12-24-2009, 10:52 PM   #24
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You know, I am not a professional photographer. In fact, far from it. But you know, if the darn thing is, say, less than 5 grand, I just might pluck down and buy it. What the heck, you only live once. But if Pentax is trying to blow a hole in a larger sensor market with MF, then I would think that they ought to somehow price it competitively in comparison to D3x for example.

Hm.... I will have to update my computer too. Oh, yes lenses, but there are solution to that problem on ebay.....
12-25-2009, 03:20 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
What the heck, you only live once.
That's the spirit!
12-25-2009, 03:56 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
You know, I am not a professional photographer. In fact, far from it. But you know, if the darn thing is, say, less than 5 grand, I just might pluck down and buy it. What the heck, you only live once.
This remark triggers another one:

In the past, large format was expensive because film was. Now in the digital era, the cost per image dropped to zero or close to this.

This means that there is only ONE factor left (besides weight and size) which limits the size of a format:

The cost of a body until deprecation (assuming lenses keep their value forever )

With a slowing down of sensor evolution (a new body not every second year but every sixth only ...) and a decrease of CMOS manufacturing cost this should favor large sensors. Larger than 35mm FF indeed.


In the long run, I see 35mm FF for portability, (larger than) MF for ultimate IQ (Gigapixels ...) and (smaller than) APS-C EVIL to replace the current P&S market after it died because of camera phones.

So, releasing affordable MF now means leading the pack. But it won't lower the pressure for FF...
12-25-2009, 06:15 AM   #27
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John Carlson, Just a pentax rep?

John Carlson "Just a Pentax rep?"

Rumor:Pentax Bringing Back 645 Digital Medium Format Camera, But... | neutralday


"200 units" was said years ago?

How about March 2009:


PMA: Pentax revives medium format digital camera plan (update) news - Amateur Photographer - news, camera reviews, lens reviews, camera equipment guides, photography courses, competitions, photography forums

>>>"


Wednesday 4th March 2009
Chris Cheesman
Pentax has revived plans to launch its long-awaited 645 Digital medium-format camera, four years after a mock-up was first shown.

The camera will go on display at the Photo Imaging Expo show in Tokyo later this month, said John Carlson, product marketing and support manager at Pentax USA.

He told Amateur Photographer that the 645 Digital is expected to go on sale in Japan.

However, it is unclear whether the camera will be sold in Europe.

And Carlson told us that it will not be marketed in the United States because Pentax predicted it would only sell 200 units there.

We understand that Pentax Japan has decided to aim the camera at the high-end market, so it seems unlikely it will be an affordable, enthusiast-level, model.

Last year, Pentax appeared to have scrapped development of the camera.

A press report in Japan had suggested that 'developments of the new camera body introduced on various occasions, as well as the SMC Pentax-D FA645 55mm f/2.8 will be virtually discontinued'.

Only a dummy version of the camera has been shown to journalists - paraded at numerous trade shows since it was first mooted at Tokyo's Photo Imaging Expo show in March 2005.

At the time of writing, no-one from Pentax Europe was available for comment at PMA.

<<<"

Wanna find more about the 645D?

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLR_enUS311...entax+usa+645D

Merry Christmas !!!

Last edited by Samsungian; 12-25-2009 at 06:20 AM.
12-25-2009, 08:37 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
This remark triggers another one:

In the past, large format was expensive because film was. Now in the digital era, the cost per image dropped to zero or close to this.

This means that there is only ONE factor left (besides weight and size) which limits the size of a format:

The cost of a body until deprecation (assuming lenses keep their value forever )

With a slowing down of sensor evolution (a new body not every second year but every sixth only ...) and a decrease of CMOS manufacturing cost this should favor large sensors. Larger than 35mm FF indeed.


In the long run, I see 35mm FF for portability, (larger than) MF for ultimate IQ (Gigapixels ...) and (smaller than) APS-C EVIL to replace the current P&S market after it died because of camera phones.

So, releasing affordable MF now means leading the pack. But it won't lower the pressure for FF...


To me, it looks like Pentax is stalling to see if the cost of manufacturing the sensors will come down. The thing about it was that Pentax has not had a whole lot of control when it comes to sensor development, because simply they didn't develop them themselves. Like I said, if this was their way of making the presence known in a larger sensor market, say a year ago Pentax could not have been competitive against full framers from Canikon. I don't know what the trend is for the price of sensors, but the reason it is not out yet is because the sensors are still too expensive. To me this is a hugely risky move. Dunno how bad of a move it is, because I know nothing about sensor market. I did hear that when they suspended the project for a while, they did that because the cost of the sensors were not to their likings.

To me, the writing is on the wall, as Falconeye predicted here. The cameras, whatever the type, will remain relatively the same sizes, but will have larger sensors in the near future, no questions about it. I hope that the future trend will favor Pentax, but I am not so sure.
12-25-2009, 09:44 AM   #29
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What it sounds like to me is that Hoya/Pentax wants to devote most of its resources to getting the MF project going, and full frame (or EVIL or whatever else) is going to have to wait until this is done, probably until 2011 or even 2012.

This is a perfectly reasonable course of action, as a medium format system should be done right if they are going to do it all, and they are making it basically from scratch. I also think it is a smart move on their part to try to bring medium format into the $5000-$7000 range (if this turns out to be true), as competing cameras in that price range are mostly geared towards pro sports shooters and photojournalists. This means that Pentax can court well heeled landscape shooters, studio photographers, and maybe even some wedding photographers who don't want to pay $8,000 plus for a Nikon d3x or Hasselblad/Leica.

So I can applaud their line of reasoning with this move, but I will be disappointed if they also don't bring out a camera next year that can compete in the $1500-$3000 range, because there will be quite a few people who can't afford the price of the 645D no matter how relatively cheap it is. People were criticizing the gap between the Pentax k-x ($600) and the k-7 ($1,050), well how about the gap between the 645D ($6000+) and the k-7 ($1050)? There seems to be a huge disconnect there.

We'll see what they come up with for a APS-C update if anything.
12-25-2009, 11:59 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Urkeldaedalus Quote
What it sounds like to me is that Hoya/Pentax wants to devote most of its resources to getting the MF project going, and full frame (or EVIL or whatever else) is going to have to wait until this is done, probably until 2011 or even 2012.
QuoteQuote:
We'll see what they come up with for a APS-C update if anything.
From my son's translation, I understood that they actually said that the release of the 645D won't delay the further development of the existing 2 lines. I took that as a strong hint that we'll see updates of both K-x and K-7 no later than Photokina.
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