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12-29-2009, 07:01 AM   #61
Nubi
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This kind of mentality, where you let others pioneer it while you refine it, is not exactly new from Japanese manufactures. Heck, the entire Japanese auto industry is based on that kind of thinking, at least in the early stages.

I do think that there is a slight possibility where K-7 replacement will be FF next year. Another APS-C sensor camera may be risky, especially in light of the fact that K-7 sensors were not well received by some. As Falconeye suggested, there may not be a whole lot more room for improvement in APS-C sensor technology. Refinement of such a sensor can be tricky in that no matter how refined, it may not be well received by some, as was the case with K-7. I know many of you don't think that, but Pentax thought that they had a sensor in K-7 that many Pentaxians would love. They surely miscalculated that one. One simple (but not easy) way to please many of us may be FF, but they are not, at least they have not been before Hoya take over, the kind of company that make this or that just because they will sell. This is why we love Pentax, and this is why Pentax may not be such a good investment for a big corporation like Hoya. Too much rooted culture in a company like Pentax. They are sort of like an eccentric child that every family seems to have at least one of.

12-29-2009, 07:31 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
TI know many of you don't think that, but Pentax thought that they had a sensor in K-7 that many Pentaxians would love.
All this bashing of the K-7 sensor seems a bit out of proportion to me. It seems to me that it delivers very good results except for chromatic noise at very high ISO.

Can the K-x match the K-7 at low ISO?
12-29-2009, 08:22 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
All this bashing of the K-7 sensor seems a bit out of proportion to me. It seems to me that it delivers very good results except for chromatic noise at very high ISO.

Can the K-x match the K-7 at low ISO?
No it can't, but didn't you know the High Iso sensor capabilities is the only important caracteristic of a camera?

It's like: "Is it a Canon? No? Ow...." or "Is is a FF" or again "does it take 12800 ISO clean as 100 iso shots?"

It's fine for those who need it. But it is way overblown.
12-29-2009, 09:03 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
I bet there are at least 10x more people willing to pay $2,000 for a FF Pentax DSLR body to use with their FF K-mount lenses than are willing to pay $10,000 for the 645D body that needs a whole new lens series.
Well, no doubt there are many more folks with $2000 to spend on a new camera than there are those with $10,000 ....but if I had the cash I would choose the 645D over a FF any day.

12-29-2009, 09:54 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote

It actually doesn't change our conclusion (I think we agree that FF will come but not in 2010).



However, this really shouldn't be this difficult to achieve: Most Pentaxians and me (and many others) hate the bulk brought by digital FF cameras.
Falk,

I am firmly seated in your camp. There is little to be gained at this time if Pentax ventured into the FF market. It might sorely undercut the STATEMENT and IMPACT that an (advanced) amateur 645D, low priced (relative of course) camera would make in the DSLR market. Clearly, Pentax would be the giant in the field if the camera functions as Hoya seems to say it will.

The product placement offered by the 645D, the high quality (even if some don't like the sensor) of the K7 and the Best Bang For The Buck of the KX, will allow Pentax/Hoya to have a platform to offer a professional level FF some 18 months down the line if they so decide.

There is little doubt in my mind, from a marketing point of view, that there will always be competition in this industry. As you noted, as these sensor prices drop the reality of FF may well become the defacto standard of all DSLR's.

Only two years ago the sensor (thought to be offered in the 645D) was a $30,000sensor. FF will not be a financial liability to Pentax. It's just a matter of Pentax choosing the time and place.

Stephen
12-29-2009, 09:59 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
Too much rooted culture in a company like Pentax. They are sort of like an eccentric child that every family seems to have at least one of.
Well, Nubi I think you hit the proverbial nail pretty well

But the eccentric side now got its satisfaction from eventually receiving green light to go for 645D. There shouldn't be too strong opinions against FF except, of course, 10 years ago when they burned their fingers while trying to be first (2 years before everybody else!) with a digital FF ... (MZ-D)

So, my question to a native Japanese speaker...:

Are the statements being made about a K-7 (and K-x) replacement being simultaneously developed with 645D and the statement that they don't want to be a follower for FF (and don't have the lenses) compliant with an interpretaion where said K-7 replacement would be FF?

Last edited by falconeye; 12-29-2009 at 10:08 AM.
12-29-2009, 10:54 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
No it can't, but didn't you know the High Iso sensor capabilities is the only important caracteristic of a camera?
Heh

I'd be more than happy for better ISO 800 and above on my K10D, in fact I often sorely miss it since I like to shoot a lot of handheld shots indoors in weak light.

But I won't trade it for any camera that makes compromises at ISO 100, I just love the vibrant colors and the wonderful DR the K10D shows at its base ISO.

Last edited by gazonk; 12-29-2009 at 02:01 PM.
12-30-2009, 12:03 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Well, Nubi I think you hit the proverbial nail pretty well

But the eccentric side now got its satisfaction from eventually receiving green light to go for 645D. There shouldn't be too strong opinions against FF except, of course, 10 years ago when they burned their fingers while trying to be first (2 years before everybody else!) with a digital FF ... (MZ-D)

So, my question to a native Japanese speaker...:

Are the statements being made about a K-7 (and K-x) replacement being simultaneously developed with 645D and the statement that they don't want to be a follower for FF (and don't have the lenses) compliant with an interpretaion where said K-7 replacement would be FF?


Falconeye,

I did think about that, the possibility of contradiction. But I think what he is saying that as a company, nothing is more important right now than 645D. He is talking about priority here. Once 645D is out, then I think that the statements he made can well be consistent with FF on K-7 replacement. It is just that it will not come out before 645D. To me, improving high ISO and stick it in K-7 spells admission of failure. What other features of K-7 be improved? AF and fps, but it these items were say slightly or even moderately better, would anyone buy that thinking that FF is to follow soon?

I think that they are caught in a jam. There is too much gap between K-7 and 645D if it is going to be 8 grand. By the time they are to replace k-7 and k-x, the sensor landscape can be so drastically different in that larger sensors may be on the rise.


Show me a MF body for $3,999. I will pre-order it today.


Last edited by Nubi; 12-30-2009 at 07:33 PM. Reason: Because I want FF and MF both.
12-30-2009, 04:22 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
I think that they are caught in jam. There is too much gap between K-7 and 645D if it is going to be 8 grand. By the time they are to replace k-7 and k-x, the sensor landscape can be so drastically different in that larger sensors may be on the rise.
While the 645D might be a very good answer to the question of how to capture incredible detail in landscape photography, don't forget that smaller sensors also have their virtues: Just imagine what a monster lens you will need on a FF camera to get the equivalent of the compact 55-300 mm on APS-C.
12-30-2009, 07:36 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
While the 645D might be a very good answer to the question of how to capture incredible detail in landscape photography, don't forget that smaller sensors also have their virtues: Just imagine what a monster lens you will need on a FF camera to get the equivalent of the compact 55-300 mm on APS-C.


While I agree wholeheartedly, I think the reality from the standpoint of a camera manufacture is that they have got to make what people want, and not everybody have the insight to realize what you mentioned.....
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