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06-27-2007, 03:15 PM   #16
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K100D Super = K100D + Dust Removal and SDM lens support ...

Here's two (2) articles now ... one being the press release ...

Pentax K100D Super DSLR - PhotographyBLOG

Pentax's K100D is just Super - Engadget

Sigh, I wish my K100D has DR, as I've already got some "friends on-board" all over the sensor.

06-27-2007, 03:34 PM   #17
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Some of your wishes answered.

QuoteOriginally posted by ZaphodB Quote
I would really hope not. I've been happily talking about what terrible value and lazy work the Nikon D40X is... (take a budget camera, simply stuff in more megapixels to appeal to the 'lowest Canon denominator' who are only interested in comparing specs, and significantly increase the price)... I really hope Pentax don't descend to that level. The K100d's 6mp is perfectly adequate... you know what would really make the most of the K100d's abilities... lenses. More lenses. Or at least available lenses. Not yet more entry-level bodies
Pentax news release Pentax Imaging - Pentax Press Release

Still 6MP with DR and full compatibility with PENTAX SDM lenses added. Seems like a good move. I'm just glad they did something that will get them some press that indicates they are still in the game.

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06-27-2007, 03:44 PM   #18
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Hmm... they've added dust removal and SDM... I have dust removal, otherwise known as a squeezy air blower... I also have something better than dust removal, it's called dust prevention, otherwise known as changing lenses quickly. And SDM support... excellent, now I can get the most out of all those available SDM lenses... all two... wait, I said 'available'... so currently all none of them.

Yes it's another negative post, but here's why: Is this one of the two "new" dSLRs we've been told are coming? Is it really? If so I am very, very far from impressed. *Ist DS, *Ist DL, *Ist DS2, *Ist DL2, K100d, K110d... these were all the same camera with a couple of differences and improvements. After the K10d I really hoped Pentax were moving on from that. Two posts ago I said I hoped Pentax weren't going to do the same as Nikon and simply stuff in more megapixels... well I can rest easy, they added no megapixels. Seems like a good move, well IMO it seems like a lazy one. I would have preferred them to spend the time and money putting some FA lenses back into production... but of course they're not listening to me, they're listening to people who are looking to buy their first Rebel or D40. I'm sure the market dictates that Pentax has to do that, but I'm not going to pretend I see any benefit for me.

If Pentax, as we have heard, releases two new dSLRs then I'll apologise for being negative and buy one of the new cameras before the first review is out just so I can support Pentax. But this is not a new camera.

Last edited by ZaphodB; 06-27-2007 at 03:50 PM.
06-27-2007, 05:23 PM   #19
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Makes sense to me. Squeezing in another model between the K100D and K10D seems like it'd cut into the K10D's sales, and going enough below the K100D to be significant would be hard without serious cuts in quality. And really, the K100D isn't missing much at all that isn't already to be found on the K10D.

There will be plenty of time for an all-new model next year -- in the meantime, I'd really rather them focus on lenses, and a refresh of the camera with the same basic solid formula plus a few features to remain competitive seems like a smart move.

Likewise, the K10D could maybe stand a similar refresh in a few months, with a handful of token changes (make the in-camera jpeg engine more powerful and more flexible maybe with "film style" choices like the Fuji S5, make the 17-70 be the kit lens, maybe double the buffer size), but really, I can't see a compelling reason to totally re-engineer it.

Then, do they need a model above that, in the $1500 price range? Dunno. Not my price range.

06-27-2007, 05:59 PM   #20
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Yes, I too would like to know if this is one of the "new" cameras or just the existing one being upgraded.
06-27-2007, 06:07 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Makes sense to me. Squeezing in another model between the K100D and K10D seems like it'd cut into the K10D's sales, and going enough below the K100D to be significant would be hard without serious cuts in quality. And really, the K100D isn't missing much at all that isn't already to be found on the K10D.
I agree - it isn't missing much at all, which is why I don't see the need to continue playing around with it. Of course it's nice to have SDM, it's nice to have various little improvements... but I'd like something more substantial than yet another recycle of the *ist series. As far as I'm concerned Pentax effectively has two cameras: *ist DS/DL (or 'refreshed' versions) and the K10d... I believe they can and should do better than that.

QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
There will be plenty of time for an all-new model next year -- in the meantime, I'd really rather them focus on lenses, and a refresh of the camera with the same basic solid formula plus a few features to remain competitive seems like a smart move.
Sounds good to me as long as we do get an all-new model. Who's to say we won't just get another "new" K100d and/or "new" K10d? After DS, DL, DS2 and DL2, K100D, K110D, K100D-Super it's not so much a pattern as a law which Pentax seem unable to deviate from. As for focusing on lenses - yes please. Lenses are far more important than little improvements in camera specs. A "road map" doesn't do me much good, I need a lens which I can buy and mount to a camera. Even if that means resuming production of previous lens designs - something I really wish they would do.

By the way... still no battery grip. Not for the DS, DL, DS2, DL2, K100D, K110D, and not for the K100D-Super. Using a large flash on-camera, or a long lens, I would really, really, appreciate a battery grip. Pentax are adding SDM to the K100D-Super, which presumably means they expect people to use the new DA zooms on it... in which case they should realise that some people might appreciate a vertical grip. This is a relatively simple yet useful addition to the system, and that's the sort of thing I'm not seeing at the moment.

QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Likewise, the K10D could maybe stand a similar refresh in a few months, with a handful of token changes (make the in-camera jpeg engine more powerful and more flexible maybe with "film style" choices like the Fuji S5, make the 17-70 be the kit lens, maybe double the buffer size), but really, I can't see a compelling reason to totally re-engineer it.
I don't think I could stand it if they continually 'refreshed' existing models. The feeling of buying a body only for it to be rendered 'old' within weeks, and more significantly the relative lack of resale or trade-in value on 'old' dSLRs, is bad enough without the "new" cameras being mostly identical. I'd rather have clearer differentiation between products.

QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Then, do they need a model above that, in the $1500 price range? Dunno. Not my price range.
Mine neither - for the foreseeable future at least . But I'd like more choice. Big ones, small ones, some as big as yer head. Honestly I don't expect Pentax to come up with a really high-end model, because that's something they do very, very rarely. But I would like them to do something different, something with a 'USP' that differentiates them from Canon and Nikon... and I mean actually different, not just "Similar specs for less"). For an example, look at Olympus. They make small dSLRs. Small in profile. Something like that - the digital equivalent of an MX perhaps - or an MZ5N - would be a great match for the pancake lenses. Just one idea. There are plenty of other ideas which I and other Pentax users (and indeed photographers in general) must be having. Instead it seems like the market is forcing Pentax to not go much further than waving at the people looking at Rebels and D40s and saying "Hey! Look at us! We have one like that too!"

Last edited by ZaphodB; 06-27-2007 at 06:14 PM.
06-27-2007, 06:08 PM   #22
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Here we go again..

Another set of minor upgrade bodies to "Keep Pentax in the spotlight"

Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but not enough focus is going into what is important.. like others have said.. which is getting lenses *OUT* there, tweaking the flash and AF system, and other things.

Having said that, I'm officially announcing my switch to Nikon by the Summer of 2008.

Their system has things that I require, and the ease and availability of 3rd party lenses (not to mention first party), is too much of a draw.

So.. Pentax has a year to really, really, *really* impress me.
06-27-2007, 06:26 PM   #23
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I wasnt expecting a lot of changes to the updated k100, altho I did think they would put the 10mpix k10d sensor in it like what happened with the d40 to d40x. Well the reason we knew they would update it because we knew they needed to add sdm, but I hadnt thought that that would pretty much be it. The DR isnt really a feature to me since it doesnt really work so well according to tests.

Anyway, what I am more interested in, from briefly reading the specs on the flash, it doesnt appear obvious wether it supports being a wireless trigger or not.

It could actually have its use as a wireless trigger, if you like to have both the master and slave fire, then this would give you more power as the master than the built in flash can give you. And then have an off camera 360 or 540 be the main light.

06-27-2007, 06:39 PM   #24
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Thanks Artsye for reassuring me that I am not the only one with reservations. Although I am not switching to Nikon or Canon. Personally it is they who would have to really impress me to make that happen.

Having said that, I get the feeling that people on Pentax forums (not only here but elsewhere) are afraid to make criticisms, or feel that to do so would be disloyal. I can understand why. On places like DPreview you have the usual rubbish from Canon and Nikon fanatics (If I was a photographer actually taking photographs with a Canon or Nikon, instead of simply making posts about them, then I suspect these people would piss me off even more by association). Then you have people like RiceHigh who make endless petty criticisms.

But complaints over lens choice and availability are not petty. Pentax had a range of excellent FA lenses which work very well on their digital cameras, and they have discontinued them all. They know that the range as it stands looks small - if you doubt that then check the US site which still lists FA and A lenses, or look at the brochures which show lenses that you will never find now.

The third-party factor is another very valid criticism. Tamron and Sigma are incredibly slow to release some lenses for the Pentax mount, and this is something that affects us (although it is not Pentax's fault).
The lack of Tokina lenses on the other hand is Pentax's fault... as a result of the cooperation between them, we can't buy Tokina lenses for Pentax any more. We can only buy Pentax versions of Pentax/Tokina lenses, which cost a lot more. Now the exact nature of the cooperation between Pentax and Tokina is never really made clear... naturally people on Pentax forums say that Pentax is mostly responsible for the designs. Elsewhere people say that Pentax re-houses Tokina designs. Maybe the truth is somewhere in between (varying depending on the lens) but either way Tokina and Pentax have an agreement, and IMO the people who benefit most are Canon and Nikon users who still have access to those very reasonably priced Tokinas!

By the way, if you are noticing that most of my posts are negative... I am not a mole in the pay of another company, I am not planning to announce that I have seen the light and am switching to Brand X... I am posting in the hope that someone, anyone at Pentax reads some criticisms and takes it on board. They don't release information so I can only hope to have some communication go the other way.
06-27-2007, 06:47 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by ZaphodB Quote
Thanks Artsye for reassuring me that I am not the only one with reservations. Although I am not switching to Nikon or Canon. Personally it is they who would have to really impress me to make that happen.

Having said that, I get the feeling that people on Pentax forums (not only here but elsewhere) are afraid to make criticisms, or feel that to do so would be disloyal. I can understand why. On places like DPreview you have the usual rubbish from Canon and Nikon fanatics (If I was a photographer actually taking photographs with a Canon or Nikon, instead of simply making posts about them, then I suspect these people would piss me off even more by association). Then you have people like RiceHigh who make endless petty criticisms.

But complaints over lens choice and availability are not petty. Pentax had a range of excellent FA lenses which work very well on their digital cameras, and they have discontinued them all. They know that the range as it stands looks small - if you doubt that then check the US site which still lists FA and A lenses, or look at the brochures which show lenses that you will never find now.

The third-party factor is another very valid criticism. Tamron and Sigma are incredibly slow to release some lenses for the Pentax mount, and this is something that affects us (although it is not Pentax's fault).
The lack of Tokina lenses on the other hand is Pentax's fault... as a result of the cooperation between them, we can't buy Tokina lenses for Pentax any more. We can only buy Pentax versions of Pentax/Tokina lenses, which cost a lot more. Now the exact nature of the cooperation between Pentax and Tokina is never really made clear... naturally people here say the Pentax is mostly responsible for the designs. Elsewhere people say that Pentax re-houses Tokina designs. Maybe the truth is somewhere in between (varying depending on the lens) but either way Tokina and Pentax have an agreement, and IMO the people who benefit most are Canon and Nikon users who still have access to those very reasonably priced Tokinas!

By the way, if you are noticing that most of my posts are negative... I am not a mole in the pay of another company, I am not planning to announce that I have seen the light and am switching to Brand X... I am posting in the hope that someone, anyone at Pentax reads some criticisms and takes it on board.
See, that's the thing... Nikon *HAS* impressed me. A lot. Their flash system is next to none, I've both given it a test-drive and seen it in action by a wedding photographer that took my DS with 360FGZ to town with a D70 and an SB-600.

The fact that Nikon's sensor has a similar look to Pentax is another bonus as well, as one thing I do love about Pentax is the fact that it doesn't look plastic out of the camera. Nikon doesn't either.

Anyway, I'm not here to rag on Pentax. I love it. I really do, and if they can fix some of the glaring errors, I'd stay with them, but I long abandoned any hope of them doing so. The K10D, as wonderful a camera as it is, just isn't *enough*, and with the lack of lenses, the constant delays, and the lack of any true high-end upgrade path.. It's just my time to move on.

I didn't mean it as any serious, "Screw you Pentax, I'm going home!", but more of a... "It's been a blast folks, but the love affair has to end."
06-27-2007, 07:35 PM   #26
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I realised that was how you meant it, sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting otherwise. My remarks about people dramatically 'seeing the light' and switching were mainly referring to RiceHigh.

What concerns me is that there seems to be a complacency, or maybe defensiveness, which means that the decision to switch is sometimes met with a response which is either a little paranoid (to the effect of "He must have been paid by Nikon to put people off the fantastic K10D which they would obviously otherwise buy!")... I have to admit I am sometimes guilty of this... or simply indifference. The latter is IMO worse. A decision to leave may simply indicate a personal choice based on priorities... but it can also indicate genuine weaknesses in the system.

I am fond of analogies, so here's one: Imagine if someone who for years went to the same cafe every day suddenly stops and instead goes to the one across the street. Surely it would concern the cafe owner? Maybe the other one has better coffee. Maybe better sandwiches. Maybe more sandwich fillings. Maybe they have better service. Maybe it's easier to find a free table. Maybe they're cheaper and the customer decided the pennies add up in the long run. There is going to be a reason, and you would hope that someone would bother to find out and then try to improve in that area rather than remaining complacent and risk losing more regulars. OK analogy over.

Camera/optics companies - not just Pentax - are great at making people wait and not releasing information. They don't go in much for communicating with their customers. For that reason I think it's particularly important to raise concerns and see if they take them seriously.
06-27-2007, 08:03 PM   #27
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Probably a smart move...

I also hope that this isn't one of their '2 new bodies' in the next year - and I don't think it is because I remember reading and interview where the folks at pentax admitted that people don't like 'refreshes' like the DL2/DS2.

But, I actually think this is a pretty smart move - they need to get out more bodies with SDM support to both encourage sales of the new pentax SDM lenses and get 3rd parties to provide SDM lenses too (pentax isn't naive - they know they need Sigma/Tamron to fill in the gaps in their system until they can plug the holes or if a certain lens just won't sell enough).

As for camera innovation - they need more lenses, of course. But they also need to really start pushing the boundaries of what they can get their cameras to do - now that these things are basically little miniature computers. Eg - it would be really cool when I go on vacation to be able to leave my computer at home, take my DSLR, and be able to take pictures during the day, get back to the hotel and upload the keepers onto flickr or my blog. Maybe check my email and browse the web a little while I'm at it. Ridiculous? I would do just about anything to not have to drag the laptop around if it's not for work. Heck, I would settle for taking a little foldable keyboard.

There are heaps of really useful ideas that would make the 'system' useful. Most of them really don't have much to do with the traditional ways we rank cameras though (1/4000 max shutter, 12 frame raw buffer, 3fps, etc)...

IMO
06-27-2007, 08:26 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by ncallender Quote
But, I actually think this is a pretty smart move - they need to get out more bodies with SDM support to both encourage sales of the new pentax SDM lenses...
If they want to encourage sales of the new Pentax SDM lenses, maybe they should release the new Pentax SDM lenses

QuoteOriginally posted by ncallender Quote
and get 3rd parties to provide SDM lenses too (pentax isn't naive - they know they need Sigma/Tamron to fill in the gaps in their system until they can plug the holes or if a certain lens just won't sell enough).
Well you may have a long wait for third-party SDM lenses... the latest version of the 70-200mm f/2.8 (HSM version) was released for Canon and Nikon mount two years ago. Two years. I am waiting for one for the Pentax mount. No news yet, except that it will not have an ultrasonic HSM motor. Or an aperture ring to work with film cameras even though all previous versions did. So why did it take them nearly two years to release the same lens with less functions for the K-mount? My guess, because they don't really care, they're happy selling lenses for the big two. Anyway if this is anything to go by then good luck waiting for any SDM/HSM focusing third-party lenses for Pentax. We know there won't be any lenses coming from Tokina, because we can't buy them.

QuoteOriginally posted by ncallender Quote
As for camera innovation - they need more lenses, of course. But they also need to really start pushing the boundaries of what they can get their cameras to do - now that these things are basically little miniature computers.
Well I can think of one way to push the boundaries of what cameras can do - with lenses lenses to push the boundaries of the sensors and the image processing.

As for the camera being a computer, I can see why those functions might be appealing, but it isn't for me. I remember seeing a Kodak ad where some guy was raving about Kodak cameras that incorporate GPS coordinates as if it was the best thing since sliced bread... I was baffled. I'd like my camera to be a camera. For me, a good mobile phone fills the "multi-purpose device" category fairly well. I definitely can't see myself checking emails on my camera. If I really wanted a computer then I would simply get a lighter laptop and take that - because that way I would have a proper monitor so that I could actually be sure that the shot was worth uploading, and do any necessary processing.

I do think there's a place for those things you mentioned, but personally I'd prefer them to be in point-&-shoots or compacts... for a dSLR I'd rather have the best tool for the job, and have a decent choice of lenses. Pentax can improve on the former, and IMO need to improve on the latter... when that's done, then I'll be happy for them to work on getting the cameras to receive email.
06-27-2007, 08:43 PM   #29
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Ah, no ...

QuoteOriginally posted by ncallender Quote
As for camera innovation - they need more lenses, of course. But they also need to really start pushing the boundaries of what they can get their cameras to do - now that these things are basically little miniature computers.
Ah, no, sorry, do not see that at all. You're talking about an usability nightmare! I mean, people complain about PDAs and SmartPhones being "an issue" to use, can you imagine trying to crap those features in an even more "usability strained" solution like a dSLR body?

I'm an embedded engineer, but it's been far more field application-level engineering these days. Trust me, it sounds "cool" and there's certainly the horsepower to do many things in today's uC (microcontrollers), 512MB of flash (enough to even fit in a "very fat" Linux build), but it's all about usability more than even technical feasibility. I don't see Pentax being able to offer anything -- let alone not even Canon, Nikon or others.

It would be a support nightmare, let alone limited and no one would use it, because of those limitations. I mean, you couldn't do general web browsing, so you could only have limited partnerships with various providers, sites, etc... In a nutshell, you'd build a microcosm of functionality that most people would feel like a ball is strapped to their ankles when using it. Won't work, not at all.

People still use calculators. Despite all the advanced PDAs and SmartPhones out there, people still use calculators. I mean, at one point, HP got completely out of the market, assuming calculators were dead. Guess what? They're back! At the same time, calculators don't attempt to be PDAs or SmartPhones. Yeah, I remember back in 1990-1991, I used my HP 48 (whoo hoo, with that big, bad 4MHz Saturn BCD microcontroller) as a contact manager, but that was well before PDAs took off. That's about it. It's a calculator that gives me more capability than a PDA or SmartPhone, even with an updated software calculator. Today I have a HP 50G, which complements my old HP 48 (which still runs).

Same deal for dSLR, people use them as a dSLR and nothing else. Why? Because if they really needed additional functionality, they'd get a generic device. A generic device that is much smaller.

QuoteOriginally posted by ncallender Quote
Eg - it would be really cool when I go on vacation to be able to leave my computer at home, take my DSLR, and be able to take pictures during the day, get back to the hotel and upload the keepers onto flickr or my blog. Maybe check my email and browse the web a little while I'm at it. Ridiculous? I would do just about anything to not have to drag the laptop around if it's not for work. Heck, I would settle for taking a little foldable keyboard.
Then get a PDA or a SmartPhone. Putting such functionality, functionality that is already in a smaller and more usable device than a dSLR, would be utterly self-defeating. A SmartPhone is a heck of a lot easier/lighter to lug around than a dSLR. The removable media is the bridge. Has been for awhile now. It will continue to be.

In the near future, the compact digital camera (with motion video), mobile phone and basic computing device will reach a climax of complete integration into a general media device. It would not surprise me if it would erase 50+% of the compact digital camera market in one year -- because it would mean you'd lug only one device around. And you'll be shocked what they'll be able to do -- the entire back will be a 2" LCD screen, and a full 3x, maybe even 6x, zoom integrated in a 0.5-0.75" thick body. You'll be able to upload pictures near-instantly to the Internet. It's coming. In fact, when the phone designers realize that they could make far more money by putting a 1/2.5" (or even smaller) CCD into a phone with at least 5MP (1/2.5" CCDs hit 8MP in March, and should be 10MP by year's end) than simple MP3 or other things, it will happen.

But again, there will still be calculators, dSLRs, etc... for people who need additional functionality. And those things won't try to be phones or computing devices. After all, you can always pull your media card out of your calculator, dSLR, etc... and put it in your all-in-one, general media device. A media device you would carry any way, and then only carry your additional device when you needed that extra functionality. I mean, people will choose between lugging the media device or the media device and their dSLR for the day. The last thing they'd do is lug their dSLR just so it can be a PDA -- when a SmartPhone can do that today, in a much smaller package.

QuoteOriginally posted by ncallender Quote
There are heaps of really useful ideas that would make the 'system' useful. Most of them really don't have much to do with the traditional ways we rank cameras though (1/4000 max shutter, 12 frame raw buffer, 3fps, etc)...
Nothing against you, and please don't take this wrong, but I see these ideas every day. Please don't ever go into marketing.

I completely understand that consumers like yourself do want another avenue than lugging a laptop with them on vacation. But the solution is not to put the functionality in a dSLR any more than an engineer would want it in his calculator. The compact camera-phone-PDA is going to reach a point where the it's the single device more than 50% of consumers will own, solely, for all their media-communication-computing needs very soon. And that device, with the SD (or microSD) card, will be their avenue and replacement for a notebook.

I have to deal with these ideas all-the-time, especially after they have been sold to a customer without my review. It's beyond just technical feasibility, but consumer usability -- and it utterly fails. I've seen the same come from my fellow engineers as well at times, so it's not merely about being an engineer or non-engineer. Bad usability ideas come up because they are "cool" and technically possible, but hardly feasible as a product.

As Scott Adams illustrates best in the Dilbert series of comics with the banner over the department: Marketing: 2 Drink Minimum

Last edited by bjsmith; 06-27-2007 at 08:56 PM.
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