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01-15-2010, 12:28 AM   #151
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I'm actually suprised Pentax has not yet released an EVIL camera yet. They had a concept EVIL shown at Photokina 2006, and I thought for sure the K-m would appear as an EVIL.

Eventually I expect all cameras to go EVIL. Even the pro's gear.

In my mind they need to fix three things:

1. Quality of viewfinder. The viewfinder image needs to match or betters optical systems. I have no doubt they will eventually.
2. Lag. They need to remove image lag, shutter lag, and focus lag. This is just a processor power issue. It will be a non-issue 4 years from now.
3. Sensor bloom. Ok, I expect i don't know what I am talking about here, but I understand EVIL's tend to have sensor bloom at bright points. I'll wait for a correction on this point.

If I'm looking into an EVIL viewfinder, and I can't tell that its not an optical view finder, then they got it right. But until then, I want high quality optics.

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01-15-2010, 04:13 AM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
The JDM has generally been a decent indicator of the trends to come, likely better than the outskirts of your cave^H^H^H^Hresidence.
I'm not sure what the caret and H thing symbolises...a rugby goalpost in front of a mountain? A TIE fighter parked next to a house?

But, yes, I apologise for not living in Japan. Really. I'm sorry it offends you. I don't plan on actually doing anything about it, because Japan seems like the kind of place I'd get bored with after about five minutes, what with their work ethic and tentacle rape and all, but there you go.

However, it's pretty well known, that, aside from viewing the years 1937 to 1945 as when the nation politely visited the rest of Asia and brought delicious cake and other gifts to them, Japan's crazy about cameras. They are, after all, the leading manufacturer of 'em. Like how the Americans love cars, or Belgians like chocolate, or the Chinese like tea. So I wouldn't call the Japanese Domestic Market a fair indicator of the rest of the world. Everyone in the world must want some used schoolgirl underwear, then, because those things sell like hotcakes in Japan.

Now, to be fair, there are markets manufacturers use to test new products and see how there uptake will be in bigger markets. Generally, these places have a wide cross section of citizens, of different backgrounds - ethnic, social, economically - and situations (do they live where it's hot? In a city? In the middle of nowhere? Where it snows? Where the rainfall is measured in feet?) The spending habits of these consumers should reflect those in Europe or the US, or preferably both. And getting a decent amount of product into that place should be easy - ie, you shouldn't have to ship in millions of units in case the thing takes off to satisfy demand, but it'd be nice to have it close to the manufacturing base for easy importation.

One of those places is a god-forsaken stack of dust and rock north of the great whaling grounds of the Southern Ocean, east of Africa, west of the land Russel Crowe is really from. Australia. Which, if you check my location, is where I'm from. A lot of the time, when a multinational company wants see how well a new product might do, they chuck a few in the Australian market and see who salutes. Car manufacturers do this (ie, when they want to test a new form fuel injection or similar) and Kodak did it with that OLED-screened camera they had a few years back. Granted, we're not so popular now as our economy isn't as far up Tubgirl Creek as other places.

In short, no, I haven't seen that many Pens or Pannies around. My mum does own an Oly waterproof P&S, which is a nice little camera, but they're all nice little cameras at that price point. Oly P&S sells well, I saw someone buy a non-4/3 Panny the other day, and I've seen a few Oly DSLRs around. Other than that, it's Canon and Nikon, and, in a distant third Pentax is doing all right, Rainbow-Serpent-knows-how with CRK as a distributor.

I suppose that's my fault for not living in Japan. I suppose I'm also a bastard for thinking of sashimi as a tapeworm delivery device.

If you're so up with being on the bleeding edge of techno-cool, you should start begging for a camera that uses zero-point energy for power. I mean, the first camera company that nails that will have the world at its feet.

Oh and since you're a big fan of logical fallacies in arguments, juu, might want to look up "ad hominem" and "false dilemma." By the way, have you stopped beating your wife?
01-15-2010, 05:16 AM   #153
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
I'm not sure what the caret and H thing symbolises...
^H stands for backspace, and is used for epanorthosis.

QuoteQuote:
But, yes, I apologise for not living in Japan.
My answer had about 12 points and you respond to just one with a 9 paragraph moderately funny rant about Japan and how it doesn't represent the world? Not enough wittiness for the other 11?

Alas, you are responding to a strawman argument again. I said the JDM was "generally a decent indicator of the trends to come". I think it's fairly obvious from the context that I was speaking about consumer electronics and not underwear.

The argument isn't about whether they are a good test market. It is about, as you said, them loving cameras and other consumer electronics and thus being ready to pay a premium for being early adopters. It has happened with mobile phones, it has happened with smartphones, it has happened with digital cameras and now is happening with EVIL.

The writing is on the wall, it's up to you (and Pentax) to see it or not.
01-15-2010, 05:49 AM   #154
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juu, are you aware the K-x surpassed the best selling EVIL in Japan, in December?

01-15-2010, 06:17 AM   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
juu, are you aware the K-x surpassed the best selling EVIL in Japan, in December?
Yes, I was very glad to hear that and thought it was well deserved, it is after all the best entry-level DSLR on the market right now.

However, Panasonic still sold more cameras in total than Pentax.

Furthermore, the K-x costs ¥57.0k while the GF1 costs ¥68.3k in their "standard" kit forms for a significant 20% difference. Given that they are still neck and neck in sales. It's likely that in terms of actual profits, the GF1 made way more for Panasonic than the K-x made for Pentax.

I'm not saying this to detract from what is a tremendous accomplishment by Pentax and the K-x. I just think that even considering their recent success, Pentax should still build an EVIL camera.

BTW the percentages for the top 10:
QuoteQuote:
500D 23.4
D5000 13.4
K-x 7.9
GF1 7.4
D90 7.3
7D 5.7
D3000 5.1
450D 3.7
E-P2 3.5
G1 2.8
EVILs have 13.7% in the top 10 with GH1 and E-P1 adding more. How much do you think was it December 2008?

Last edited by juu; 01-15-2010 at 06:23 AM.
01-15-2010, 07:06 AM   #156
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I'm afraid it's not that simple.
* R&D - EVIL is yet another format, needing it's own lens line. This would take considerable resources, which could be better used on developing the DSLR line.
* Market - could Pentax, with an EVIL, be as successful as Panasonic? Or as their K-x is? I doubt it. If anything, it would only make things more complicated - having two different formats competing on the same market.
* Even worse, the moment a Pentax EVIL appears, people will start thinking that's the beginning of the end for the K-mount. Would the DSLR sales suffer? Not an impossible scenario.
And by delaying the K-7/K-x replacements, and new K-mount lenses in order to bring up the EVIL, they would only fuel such rumors.
01-15-2010, 07:57 AM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
The general impression I get from this thread is that:

* Pentax is actually hiding a shitload of money in a numbered account in the Cayman Islands and that there's a loophole in Japanese tax law saying that you won't be prosecuted for tax evasion if you use that money to build an EVIL camera. Or something like that. Because Pentax sure as hell isn't using it to fix the SDM issues, bring out a full frame camera (you know, something with a proven market as opposed to this hype and speculation surrounding EVILs,) or start reminding potential consumers that they still exist and make decent cameras through the wonderful medium of advertising.

* One day, EVFs will be better than OVFs. That's the same logic you should use as an excuse to take up having unprotected sex with complete strangers and sharing needles, because one day there'll be a cure for HIV.

As it stands, the current range of EVILs are like those 4WDs you see around that have the fuel efficiency of a 4WD, are the size of a real 4WD, cost as much as a 4WD, but aren't actually 4WD, and instead are powered by something similar to a windup rubber band used on balsawood planes.

The inherit the flaws of SLRS - price, bulk, complexity (given their target market) - and with only two advantages: interchangeable lenses and a large sensor.

And, of course, there are the P&S traits: that bullshit, slow Tourist Finder, or a headache-inducing, grainy EVF, low-powered processing, and the battery life can't be good with all those electronic gizmos to run.

And, a bonus, unique to the EVIL gang: exposed sensors very close to the flange when the lens is off! I suppose that's for people who are worried they're just not getting enough use out of their Arctic Butterfly.

Of course, why stick with proven technology that's free to use (OVFs) when you can shell out millions for new, untested technology that's probably had the crap patented out of it. Why invest money in your own products when you can just send it all to your competitors?

Why are we still using box-and-prism setups? They're cheap, and they're free to use, and they're a damn sight better (pun most definitely intended,) than untested, new technology. They let you use something other than contrast AF, too.

"EVF revolution" - I'm not sure if that's pathetic techno-hipsterism, or just sad.

One question this all raises: if EVILs are the Second Coming of Oskar Barnack or whatever, why are there all these people still on a forum about a company that doesn't make one? Why haven't they immediately hocked their outdated, outmoded, unhip K-mount gear, bought a Lymp or a Panny and carved the 4/3 logo into their forehead, Manson-style?

The only conclusions I can come to are: EVILs aren't as good as their proponents claim them to be, or that these are poor suckers caught between blind brand allegiance and the slow, searing realisation that the brand they've sworn blind allegiance to isn't catering to their needs, or, frankly, as mentioned, they're WIRED subscribers and latest issue has condemned SLRs to the "Tired" column.

Go and get a Panny, I wouldn't think less of you. In fact, it'd be good to see you put your money where your mouth is.

As Wheatfield says, if makers invest a shitload of infrastructure into EVILs, they're probably not going to keep SLRs around. You know what's a better photoediting monitor than an IPS LCD? A CRT. Where can you buy one of those new, now?

For the GF1's favourable review on Luminous Landscape - the hint's in the title. Landscape. Land. Scape. Which traditionally invovles finding some scenery, which is generally stationary, sticking your camera on a tripod, taking a picture, taking your time. They probably like the live view and magnification because it reminded them of an 8x10 view cam and a loupe. You might as well grab a canvas and a brush. It's not like street shooters, or sports shooters, or photojournalists have been taking these cameras up. That's more my style. Not landscapes or or pissup pics.

For those who want capture the techno-hipster market: it'll be a good market. For about five minutes, until Apple release the iPodPussy, the world's first cocaine-white MP3 player with an artificial ******, so all the fanbois dreams can finally be fulfilled. Or filled full, either way. Then, the EVIL is relegated to the dungheap of yesterday until the next novelty that requires batteries and has the word "digital" in its title comes along.

For those who are wondering if I've been underestimating the M4/3's market penetration, would you please take a guess as to how many EVILs I've seen?
This just needed to be repeated. No truer words have I read that I haven't penned myself.
Considering how very awful electronic viewfinders are at the moment, and there isn't one that can match even a crappo Canon Rebel finder for quality, I can only conclude that there are a bunch of people who are so blinded by technology for the sake of technology that they would rather have the latest fad, even if it doesn't work as well as what is being replaced.
The only thing I've seen that is good about EVs is that they are larger than the tunnel vision finders that we are stuck with in a cropped sensor camera, and this would be fixed by a full frame sensor SLR camera with a pentaprism a lot more effectively than going to a smaller, noisier sensor camera with a miniaturized flat panel television behind a coke bottle for a viewfinder.
However, EVs are cheaper to make, so the marketing people will continue to brainwash the non thinking segment of photosociety to create a demand for them.
And eventually, we'll be stuck with the things, whether we like them or not.
01-15-2010, 08:26 AM   #158
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
This just needed to be repeated. No truer words have I read that I haven't penned myself.
Really? Because 3 out of the 4 post directly after that one ripped virtually every "point" he made apart.

QuoteQuote:
Considering how very awful electronic viewfinders are at the moment, and there isn't one that can match even a crappo Canon Rebel finder for quality
It amazes me how incredibly short sighted some people are when it comes to EVF's. I hear this a lot: EVF's suck, so they will always suck. Would it be better to wait 5 years for EVF technology to advance then build an EVIL? Sounds like a great idea to me, let everyone else build up a user base then join the party late.

And I love OVF's, but lets face facts, there are only three good ones on the market right now: the Sony 850/900, Canon 1Ds, and Nikon D3. The way things have gone so far in the DSLR era I won't be too sad to see it go. The K-x finder is garbage (as is every other cropped sensor penta-mirror to come through the pipes). Compared to my Nikon F100 the K7's VF looks like a plastic peep hole in a kids camera. So if Pentax wants to stick with the OVF then fine, but damn it, make them like they used to. Seriously, try to use a Pentax K7 side-by-side with a Pentax LX (or ME Super), it's painful. I'd rather use live view along side my LX, at least that's not a direct comparison to remind me how shitty OVF's have become.

01-15-2010, 08:42 AM   #159
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I wouldn't be as violent as the post above but people shall keep in mind that telemetric camera were still relevant when SLRs had become comon place.

Leica got busted only when they failed to take the digital trail.

And even they could make a come back with really exiting products like M9, the X1 and the S2.

Pentax is making no mistake in not entering a market naturally favorable to Electronic makers and that is not mature. Evil have certainly a bright future, it doesn't mean that it will kill pentaprism SLR.

BTW, a lot more of serious amateurs and pro were using medium format during the film days. I bet is that with the upcoming Pentax 645D and Leica S2 on one side and the "small" FF (Canon 5DmkII, Nikon D700 and Sony Alpha 900/850) on the other, the "big" FF camera segment (Canon 1D series, Nikon D3/x) is seeing its last days.

So yes, Evil will take a signifcant part of the amateur market, but Pentax has no way to compete on a segment were the big electronic companies have means and knowledge that Pentax don't. on the other side of the scale, Pentax will re-enter the medium format segment with a recognized name, the strength of an existing system that allow to go on the cheap.

It's a choice, and my 50 cent guess is that they are following a nearly perfect timing. FF democratisation means that a significant number of pros (wedding, fashion) will want to move upmarket to have a different camera than the average amateur. At the same time, the price of parts is going low enough to allow the kick off of a mass market (only a few thousand medium format backs were sold last year, worldwide)

And please stop saying that micro 4/3 or micro APSC are the best for lens adaptation. Crop factor for 4/3 asks for very high resolution lenses, while transforming ultrawide into normal lenses... APSC will be only a tad better, but with adaptator flange, a 40 pancake will be no more a 40 pancake... On a side note, having a short registration distance causes massive vigneting issues on the M9. So much that their 135 can only be used when significatively closed down.

Regards,
Guillaume
01-15-2010, 09:06 AM   #160
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Really? Because 3 out of the 4 post directly after that one ripped virtually every "point" he made apart.


It amazes me how incredibly short sighted some people are when it comes to EVF's. I hear this a lot: EVF's suck, so they will always suck. Would it be better to wait 5 years for EVF technology to advance then build an EVIL? Sounds like a great idea to me, let everyone else build up a user base then join the party late.

And I love OVF's, but lets face facts, there are only three good ones on the market right now: the Sony 850/900, Canon 1Ds, and Nikon D3. The way things have gone so far in the DSLR era I won't be too sad to see it go. The K-x finder is garbage (as is every other cropped sensor penta-mirror to come through the pipes). Compared to my Nikon F100 the K7's VF looks like a plastic peep hole in a kids camera. So if Pentax wants to stick with the OVF then fine, but damn it, make them like they used to. Seriously, try to use a Pentax K7 side-by-side with a Pentax LX (or ME Super), it's painful. I'd rather use live view along side my LX, at least that's not a direct comparison to remind me how shitty OVF's have become.
Or at least you think that his points got ripped.
Pretzel logic is not the same thing as making valid points.
By your reasoning. Pentax should have fallen on it's sword by releasing the 6mp full frame DSLR they showed in 2002.
Sure it was crap, but in 5 years the technology might have come around.
Of course, the company itself would have gone the same way the Kyocera/Contax went, but lets not discuss reality, lets just release junk technology onto the marketplace, hype the crap so that people buy it thinking they are getting something good, and laugh all the way to the bank, secure in the knowledge that P.T. Barnum was right about suckers.
Your point about viewfinders is well taken, so well taken in fact that I had mentioned it in the post you so succinctly snipped it out of. Do you think you'd have an original thought by doing that?
But, to answer your question, yes, I do think they should wait until EVFs don't suck before putting one on the market. Crap has a way of coming back to bite you in the wallet, and this is one place where Pentax's corporate masters are not very forgiving.
I try not to buy crap.
YMMV.
01-15-2010, 09:19 AM   #161
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Your point about viewfinders is well taken, so well taken in fact that I had mentioned it in the post you so succinctly snipped it out of. Do you think you'd have an original thought by doing that?
To be perfectly honest I didn't even realize you were talking about OVF's when you said tunnel VF's. I was skimming at that point because I had already gotten the point...EVF's suck. But if you go through my post history you'll find I've went off on a number of OVF rants (here's just one). So original, maybe not, but at worst a parallel thought.

QuoteQuote:
But, to answer your question, yes, I do think they should wait until EVFs don't suck before putting one on the market
And I guess "suckiness" is a sliding scale. I personally would take the EVF from the GH1 over any cropped sensor pentamirror. So to me they are already good enough for the average consumer.
01-15-2010, 09:42 AM   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
And I guess "suckiness" is a sliding scale. I personally would take the EVF from the GH1 over any cropped sensor pentamirror. So to me they are already good enough for the average consumer.
In bright-to-medium light, the G1/GH1 EVF is a joy and wonder to behold. Like an ultra high-end HDTV set. It's only in low light that its shortcomings are obvious. But that may very well already be "good enough" for general consumers and the techno-geek squad. That's because they seem to have no problem using the existing LCDs on the back of P&S cameras that are even lower quality.
01-15-2010, 09:43 AM   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Really? Because 3 out of the 4 post directly after that one ripped virtually every "point" he made apart.
Yes, yes, I can only have opinions, while everything everyone else states is fact. Even if those "facts" are based, at best, on someone reading in their tealeaves that EVF's will be better than glass...and that they will be in less than a decade.

QuoteQuote:
It amazes me how incredibly short sighted some people are when it comes to EVF's. I hear this a lot: EVF's suck, so they will always suck. Would it be better to wait 5 years for EVF technology to advance then build an EVIL? Sounds like a great idea to me, let everyone else build up a user base then join the party late.
Er, where is this technology? Fine, then, where is the basis for this technology? Where's the ultra-high dynamic range sensor and LCD technology that will allow me to see a building set against a bright sky without the sky blooming out or the building so dark I can't see the front of it? Have they bothered to build LCDs - cheap enough, I might add, to put in mass market cameras - without the lag and motion blur associated with every single LCD VF I've squinted through? Have they got the pixel pitch down so fine it no longer looks like you're looking through a sieve?

Oh, right, but they will! In the future. Other predictions made along those lines were right about us all driving flying cars, eating food pills (speed doesn't count,) and living under geodesic domes.

Basically, I'm not willing to trade, however metaphorically, what I've got for what doesn't yet exist.

QuoteQuote:
And I love OVF's, but lets face facts, there are only three good ones on the market right now: the Sony 850/900, Canon 1Ds, and Nikon D3. The way things have gone so far in the DSLR era I won't be too sad to see it go. The K-x finder is garbage (as is every other cropped sensor penta-mirror to come through the pipes). Compared to my Nikon F100 the K7's VF looks like a plastic peep hole in a kids camera. So if Pentax wants to stick with the OVF then fine, but damn it, make them like they used to. Seriously, try to use a Pentax K7 side-by-side with a Pentax LX (or ME Super), it's painful. I'd rather use live view along side my LX, at least that's not a direct comparison to remind me how shitty OVF's have become.
Is this why people are proclaiming the 4/3 sensor to be the hottest thing ever - because they can't do the basic maths to figure out the difference between sensor sizes? Comparing the K7's viewfinder to the Nikon F100 is like comparing a Piper Cub's wingspan to a 747's. Smaller format means smaller finder, bigger format means bigger finder. Simple. How big are the LCDs in the latest M4/3s cameras? Actually, how big are 4/3 DSLR finders compared to an APS-C finder?

And, finally, no I'm not a Pentax doomsayer, nor a conspiracy theorist who insists that Pentax has access to more funds than they let on. They're very well, thanks to the K-x (which managed to tap into a new market simply by adding about a few dollars to the production costs, rather than trying split current markets.) I believe they're back in the black, but they're not swimming in cash. If the gamble on EVF, they could well go under. Panasonic is very well equipped to build cameras that are more electronics rather than traditional camera mechanics, and if they try to ask for billions of yen in this climate to retool and retrain, Hoya might just cut them loose. Or they might die a "natural" death, if the EVIL doesn't go as planned.

Remember, they've got that 645D right at the very tip of the pipeline. They've gotta build those, and maintain them to a pro-grade standard, and get new lenses out there for it. They can't spread themselves too thin, in other words.
01-15-2010, 10:50 AM   #164
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An update to Nikons rumored EVIL:
Nikon EVIL camera again | Nikon Rumors

Apparently Lammerse is a reliable Nikon source. Sony has also said they're working on one. Fuji and Kodak are supposed to join m4/3's. So that leaves Canon and Pentax. In a perfect world all these companies would share the same mount. Man it would be nice to have an open standard that freely allows you to choose a body from someone else without selling off all your current gear first. Still though, m4/3's does look the most appealing for that reason (smaller sensor and all) even if Canikon and Sony do their own thing. At least we'd have 3 or maybe 4 companies to choose from.
01-15-2010, 10:51 AM   #165
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
based [..] on someone reading in their tealeaves that EVF's will be better than glass [..] in less than a decade.
Ah, another strawman argument. Presume your opponents have said something they haven't, then refute it. None of the people you've been discussing this in the last few pages have claimed EVFs will get better than glass in 10 years. And they've been quite clear about that too:
QuoteQuote:
QuoteOriginally posted by Biro Quote
I strongly suspect technological advances will make EVFs much, much better. Better or as good as OVFs? A good question and I'm making no predictions. [.. A]ssuming that EVFs don't get as good as OVFs...
QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
[EVFs] only need to be "good enough" to succeed and not "better".
QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
I don't see the OVF going anywhere in the pro market or even in the enthusiast market for a very long time
Work on your reading comprehension and stick to discussing what was said, not what you wish was said.

QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
... I'm not willing to trade ...
Yes, but that's fairly insignificant in this regard.

What is significant is whether the general DSLR buyers (including P&S shooters moving up) are ready to trade an OVF/PDAF for an EVF/CDAF/live view while losing significant weight and complexity - and perhaps eventually cost - from their cameras.

This thread is about whether Pentax should build an EVIL camera and not whether you, lithos, would likely buy it or instead gnash your teeth in anger.

Don't take it so personally and try to think about what the average K-x buyer cares about. If Pentax doesn't build an EVIL to satisfy his wants, then someone else will.

QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
Remember, they've got that 645D right at the very tip of the pipeline. They've gotta build those, and maintain them to a pro-grade standard, and get new lenses out there for it. They can't spread themselves too thin, in other words.
To use your words, you think they should gamble on the MF and not EVIL, as they cannot do both. I think this is one of the few reasonable arguments you've made in this thread, especially given how they're already committed to MF. We'll see if they really cannot do both and whether the MF gamble pays off.

Last edited by juu; 01-15-2010 at 11:01 AM.
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