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01-17-2010, 06:42 AM   #196
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Well, I should add that, even tough I wouldn't replace a DSLR with an EVIL as a general-purpose photographic tool, a small, compact, silent camera has it's uses.
About:
a) I don't mind carrying along a small DSLR, in most cases. Well, the 60-250 is quite big and heavy and I need to buy a bag specifically for it, but that's another story.
b) They aren't 'significantly better', except in size (and that's only if 'better' = 'smaller').
c) What's good for Panasonic isn't necessarily good for me, too. Or for Pentax
But of course, if the world is going crazy, erm, to EVFs, Pentax shouldn't sit down and die with dignity. Are we there yet? I don't think so. Am I there yet? No way.

01-17-2010, 06:54 AM   #197
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I don't mind carrying along a small DSLR
I don't mind a big camera when photography is the main purpose of the outing. But I think it's fair to say that for the average entry-level DSLR buyer that is rarely so, so they value smaller weight/size more than the average reader of this thread.

QuoteQuote:
only if 'better' = 'smaller'
That is a good point. Too small is bad as well. Especially if it's the grip that is sacrificed, like with the GF1/EP-1/2.

QuoteQuote:
But of course, if the world is going crazy, erm, to EVFs, Pentax shouldn't sit down and die with dignity.
Yes, that is a great point. A lot of the discussion here has been along the lines of "I don't want to buy an EVIL camera now" or "I don't want EVILs to succeed".

The key issue is whether Pentax can stand on the sidelines while the market moves on, or, as you put it, "die with dignity".
01-17-2010, 08:35 AM   #198
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Regarding lag with EVF vs OVF: I can't ever imagine EVF matching OVF, even with the processing power of a supercomputer. After all, the race is between...

EVF - capturing photons of light, processing them, and then sending them to a display
OVF - bouncing photons of light through a prism at, ahem, the speed of light

didn't we learn in high school physics that nothing moves faster than light, even electronic signals in a supercomputer?
The signal path of OVF is simply the shortest and fastest possible.

That said, how small a difference in speed can a human detect and will EVFs ever be below that speed? After all, all we need is 30fps video to be fooled into thnking that we are looking at live motion.
01-17-2010, 09:55 AM   #199
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Well, Ken Rockwell has proclaimed DSLR's are no longer relevant. So I guess it is so

QuoteQuote:
“The 2000s were the DSLR decade. Those days are over. DSLRs are about as relevant today as dial-up modems and SCSI-conected scanners,

The 2010s are the decade DSLRs died.

In 2019, DSLRs will still be used for sports, news and action, but the rest of us will be using far more compact Powershots, M9s or Panasonic GF-1s for digital.“
Via:
Ken Rockwell says DSLRs are dead. It is time for the Panasonic GF1.


Edit: I apologize in advance for posting a KR quote.

01-17-2010, 10:14 AM   #200
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Kunzite, you have expressed your points well and they make sense.

However:
a) "Being as good as" depends on how you define "good". "The best camera is the one who you have with you", so portability should be one aspect of "good"
Pentax K-7 not portable enough? Hell, you want portable, grab disposable film cam! They'll kick an EVIL's arse in the lightness stakes.

In fact, I say EVIL cameras aren't lightweight enough! Remove the finders altogether! And the LCDs! Removing memory card slots will save weight! No sensors bigger than 2mm diagonally! Maximum of two elements in the lens, which should be non-interchangeable to save weight on the lens mount! Lens should be stuck at hyperfocus, thus removing the cumbersome, weighty focusing motors and AF circuits!

And no lens coatings, which will save valuable nanograms! Better yet - make it a pinhole! Button cell to power the whole shemozzle!

There you go. I reckon you'd have a camera the size of a matchbox, then.

Seriously, you know how you said that it's not about what camera I want, because what I want is bad, and claim that you speak for the entirety of the consumer demographic when you're dreaming of this EVIL - which, quite coincidentally, I'm sure - is also exactly what you want. Hmmm.

So, on that note, I'd like to add that not everyone has to deal with kids when they take photos. It's a demographic just as big, if not bigger, than the bored housewives sector.

See, there are a couple of things about the consumer market. One, yes, they follow brands, but unless they're truly tragic (like anyone you see lined up outside an Apple at three AM in winter, waiting for the doors to open so that they may purchase a slightly smaller iPod,) they're not necessarily buy Brand X just because they've bought Brand X before. After all, they're shopping for a new one...chances are the old Brand's left a bad taste in their mouth because it now needs replacing. The consumer is generally swamped by variety of stuff out there, and tends to place brands into two categories. "Good," and "Bad."

They're also just as likely to listen to the salesperson, who will probably be grinning like an idiot because the Canon rep's just given him another free T-shirt. There's actually about a trillion-to-one chance any store clerk, in any camera shop in the world, will recommend a Pentax. Most are surprised they have them on the shelf. Some are surprised the company actually still exists. A few have never even heard of Pentax. This is true. Mostly they'll recommend one based on the consumer's needs, as well as one a vast array of other factors, like which camera they want to clear off the shelves, which one has the biggest commission, and, as mentioned, which vendor gave the best kickbacks. You do know that only one in every twenty-five cameras sold is a Pentax, right? A Pentax EVIL would fair no better.

And another funny thing about the bottom-rung consumer is that they don't do much for accessory - lenses, flashes, grips - sales. These are the people who never take their lens off their DSLR. Hell, these are people who never clear their memory cards. They don't care about the IQ in low light, the pixel pitch, the maximum aperture of the lens, or the burst rate. They use a camera until it breaks, or someone buys them a new one.

If not, then, juu, my dear boy, they then turn into your worst nightmare.

The enthusiast. Like myself, and Wheatfield, the Luddites, although I think he may be even worse - I think he might be a pro.

These are the guys who do buy crap like extra lenses, and flashes, and body caps, and hotshoe covers. And since they're with a certain brand, chances are the money they spend will go back to the manufacturer of their camera.

And, as an even nastier side effect...they start caring about the quality of their images. Suddenly, fitting a camera in the nappy bag or wondering if it's talcum powder-proof are secondary concerns. They really don't give a shit if they've got a camera around there neck when they go to the post office. They want what gear gets them the images they want. If it means lugging a tripod and a 300mm lens around, then by gum they'll do it. If they need to shoot in low-light, they'll grab a hotshoe flash.

Enthusiasts are the ones who buy lenses, and keep the camera companies going. A consumer simply buys one camera - whether it be EVIL, DSLR or P&S - and doesn't worry about it until it breaks.

That's why Pentax keeps popping out shithouse point-and-shoots. Because consumers don't care, as long as the image looks good on the rear LCD or facebook.

QuoteQuote:
b) If they are significantly better in some ways (lighter/smaller, cheaper, more user friendly with DOF/etc preview) than DSLRs while "good enough" in others, it would be enough for them to largely replace DSLRs at least in the low-end market
So, ask yourself, why they still buy DSLRs? Because that's the perception of a good camera. It's what the pros use. It's like free marketing, that. With an EVIL, you'll have to carve a niche. And, generally, when it comes to carving niches, Pentax's chisel tends to be made out of rather low-carbon steel. But they're comfy niches, though.


QuoteQuote:
c) What about "selling as well as"? Shouldn't Pentax make business decisions based on that, as opposed to "being as good as" - if we want them to be around in the future?
Crystal meth sells well - better than EVILs. Maybe Pentax should merge with a bikie gang. Higher margins, too, and the tech and market's there. And there will be repeat business.
01-17-2010, 10:48 AM   #201
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
..
Your rants become longer, make less and less sense and are getting less funny too (which was their only saving grace previously).

You mostly don't present any new points that haven't been discussed already, but keep on with the strawmen and false dichotomies ("it's DSLR or a pinhole matchbox camera").

One sane point in your verbal diarrhea was that "the money is in the accessories". Even if so, EVILs can have accessories just like entry-level DSLRs if not more (upgradeable viewfinders, flashes if there is no built-in one).

And about "caring about the quality of images" - seems like the people buying EVILs over P&S care about that too. Which is why they buy a (relatively) large-format EVIL and not a P&S. The quality of images doesn't seem that bad either as far as I see.

QuoteQuote:
The enthusiast. Like myself [..] who do buy [..] extra lenses [..]. And since they're with a certain brand, chances are the money they spend will go back to the manufacturer of their camera.

[..]

Enthusiasts are the ones who buy lenses, and keep the camera companies going.
What Pentax lenses that were manufactured in the last 10 years do you own? Judging by your profile, exactly none.

I'm only bringing this up as you were using yourself as a great example of somebody who brings in continuous revenue for Pentax.

Anyway, why do you think companies try to fight in the entry-level DSLR market if the bottom-rung consumer is so useless?

QuoteQuote:
Crystal meth sells well - better than EVILs.
Well, I've said before that this discussion isn't about underwear or illicit substances, but about camera gear. Is that so hard to grasp?

Are you claiming Pentax is unqualified to market EVIL cameras? That their marketing department is useless and can only sell P&S and DSLRs which somehow sell themselves?

Last edited by juu; 01-17-2010 at 12:24 PM.
01-17-2010, 11:07 AM   #202
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Regarding lag with EVF vs OVF: I can't ever imagine EVF matching OVF, even with the processing power of a supercomputer. After all, the race is between...

EVF - capturing photons of light, processing them, and then sending them to a display
OVF - bouncing photons of light through a prism at, ahem, the speed of light

didn't we learn in high school physics that nothing moves faster than light, even electronic signals in a supercomputer?
The signal path of OVF is simply the shortest and fastest possible.

That said, how small a difference in speed can a human detect and will EVFs ever be below that speed? After all, all we need is 30fps video to be fooled into thnking that we are looking at live motion.
I think you missed the point that both EVIL and DSLR has delays, only of different type.

EVIL has a "electrical" delay between image captured by the sensor and the image displayed on the EVF, but has very little delay after the shutter pressed and the image captured.
DSLR has no delay in the image displayed in the OVF, but has instead quite long "mechanical" delay after the shutter button pressed and the image captured. It takes some time for the mirror to move before the image can be captured.

The total (prefocused) delay on a Pentax K7 is 0.074s according to Imaging Resource. Pentax K-7 Digital Camera Performance - Full Review - The Imaging Resource!
The total (prefocused) delay on a Panasonic GF1 is 0.072s according to Imaging Resource. Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF1 Digital Camera Performance - Full Review - The Imaging Resource!

Some "live-view" P&S has even shorter delay (LX3 has 0.012s delay) so I think EVIL might also get less delay in future generation cameras.
01-17-2010, 12:12 PM   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
I think you missed the point that both EVIL and DSLR has delays, only of different type.

EVIL has a "electrical" delay between image captured by the sensor and the image displayed on the EVF, but has very little delay after the shutter pressed and the image captured.
DSLR has no delay in the image displayed in the OVF, but has instead quite long "mechanical" delay after the shutter button pressed and the image captured. It takes some time for the mirror to move before the image can be captured.

The total (prefocused) delay on a Pentax K7 is 0.074s according to Imaging Resource. Pentax K-7 Digital Camera Performance - Full Review - The Imaging Resource!
The total (prefocused) delay on a Panasonic GF1 is 0.072s according to Imaging Resource. Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF1 Digital Camera Performance - Full Review - The Imaging Resource!

Some "live-view" P&S has even shorter delay (LX3 has 0.012s delay) so I think EVIL might also get less delay in future generation cameras.
Interesting data points to add to the discussion, but those times exclude one important factor - the time it takes to decide to press the shutter.

The OVF of the K7, as discussed, is realtime, the speed of light. You see, you decide to press the shutter, and .074s later the sensor is exposed.

If, on the other hand, the EVF of the GF1 has a delay, say .10 second, then at the moment you decide to press the shutter you are already .10 second behind. In effect, what you are seeing in the EVF is what happened .10 seconds ago.

Does that .10s get added to the .072s of the Panasonic GF1, making the delay really .172s and much slower than the K7?

Could that delay be the difference between someone's eyes being open in a portrait and being closed?

And what is the lag? Is it .10s? Is it bigger? Is it smaller? Ultimately, is it big enough to matter?

01-17-2010, 12:33 PM   #204
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AFAIK these times are total delays (including VF) using a test like this.
Shooting Digital : Ed Schwartz : Shutter Release Test

When testing my Fuji F31fd I get a total delay of 0.040-0.050s compared to 0.100s on K10D.

Last edited by Fogel70; 01-17-2010 at 12:39 PM.
01-17-2010, 12:35 PM   #205
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I'd rather live with the quite slow 0.074s (compared with the ultra fast 0.072) if that means the viewfinder image is shown real-time.
Anyway, this discussion is rather pointless. Pentax don't have the resources to fulfill everyone's whim; and it would be insane to throw away the momentum gained by the K-7&K-7 for the dream of being the nth EVIL maker.
01-17-2010, 01:22 PM   #206
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
to fulfill everyone's whim
That's a hyperbole, EVIL is WAY BEYOND being someone's whim.

QuoteQuote:
throw away the momentum gained by the K-7&K-7
"Throw away momentum" is something quite abstract, unless you elaborate on what you mean by that.

K-7 and K-x is in essence trying to outplay Canikon at the game they play best. With the product placement and marketing issues that lithos mentioned it is a difficult game (btw I wonder if the next entry level Canikons will have bright colours to essentially remove one of K-x's main advantages).

With EVIL comes a less mature market, and carving niches where to be leaders is easier in less mature markets.

QuoteQuote:
the dream of being the nth EVIL maker.
4th is not a very big number, especially given that Samsung's offering seems weak in many ways so far.

Should they wait until it's the 10th?
01-17-2010, 01:57 PM   #207
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Well, it is a hyperbole
I can elaborate, all right. The K-7&K-x duo is quite successful, as we know; the K-x was the 3rd best selling DSLR or EVIL in Japan, in December. And right now I see the K-7 twice on the amazon.co.jp top 25 DSLRs, on #7 and #9 - that means it's not selling that bad, either (even though it couldn't make 1.3% on 2009 - again, the Japanese market).
Then, shouldn't they continue with this strategy, i.e. new products: cameras (K-7&K-x replacements), lenses, accessories? People started to realize Pentax makes good DSLRs; shouldn't Pentax give them exactly that?
Throwing away momentum means, in this context, delaying or canceling such plans in order to bring out an EVIL. And don't tell me they won't have to delay/cancel anything; the EVIL itself is at least as difficult to make as a DSLR, and add to that the resources needed for EVIL-specific lenses... I bet quite a few pentaxians won't be that happy finding out their high-ISO capable K-7mkII/weather sealed K-x/full frame with pink silicon sensor/dream lens/whatever is delayed, because of that. I wouldn't be.
01-17-2010, 02:19 PM   #208
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The problem I see is that many entry-level customers do not see or any big difference between EVIL and DSLR. They just see both as interchangeable lens cameras with high image and video quality.

When they upgrade from P&S they might just choose the smallest best looking low-budget interchangeable lens camera with best movie mode and most P&S like operation.

The whole "DSLR vs EVIL" pros & cons are most for us experienced and advanced users.

Last edited by Fogel70; 01-17-2010 at 02:29 PM.
01-17-2010, 02:35 PM   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Then, shouldn't they continue with this strategy, i.e. new products: cameras (K-7&K-x replacements), lenses, accessories? People started to realize Pentax makes good DSLRs; shouldn't Pentax give them exactly that?
I don't want to diminish how good K-x is as it is a great camera and better in nearly all ways than the competition. However, I suspect it mostly relies on two "tricks" (USPs) to actually pull the sales in - small size, and bright colours.

95%+ of K-x buyers aren't aware of great high ISO capability, lack of AF indicators (thankfully), ergonomics, the included AF motor or whatever else we keep discussing here. They might not even care, they want a small camera that takes looks cute and hopefully takes nice pictures (oh wait, what does that sound like?). The K-7 sales might actually largely be upsales from people brought into the stores by the K-x, idk.

Now, the small size "trick" will gradually get eroded by EVIL as they become more affordable.

And the colour "trick" is even less sustainable as it can easily be duplicated by Canikon/Sony.

They will need new "tricks". Do they have them prepared? Perhaps. If not then, say, a WR EVIL camera - still with bright colours - might be one that makes sense (as would a WR K-x mk2 btw!).

But obviously there are resource constraints and existing commitment to 645D. Time will show how much they can or cannot do. I just hope if they choose not to do something, it's not because they are sleeping at the wheel.

Last edited by juu; 01-17-2010 at 02:40 PM.
01-17-2010, 03:13 PM   #210
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
4th is not a very big number, especially given that Samsung's offering seems weak in many ways so far.
“The quoted flange distance of the new NX mount is 25.5mm. The Leica M bayonet is 27.8mm. That sounds like good news, right? A whole 2.3mm to spare? Unfortunately, No. The tabs of the M bayonet extend behindthe flange by almost 7mm, and are 43.5mm in diameter. Thus they would collide with the inner throat of the NX mount. Doesn’t look like an M-mount adapter is going to happen. (Or, not one that can focus at infinity, anyway).”

If that is true then Samsung's EVIL may be as good as dead to me. No way would I buy one of these cameras if I didn't have access to ALL available manual lenses. At least they do have a K-Mount.

Rings of fire (k-mount adapter for Samsung NX10) | Photo Rumors
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