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01-19-2010, 02:45 PM   #256
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Well, you didn't cleared that up - because your own words also are clear: "eventually" upgrade the K-7. "Eventually". You're talking about putting most efforts into the EVIL, while maintaining the K-mount with the minimum of the resources - that's abandoning it, FYI. Waiting it to die.
No, the K-7 must be upgraded (Photokina is a good time), and don't use the "K-7 can handle" strawman. The competition is not sitting idle, and the Samsung sensor is showing it's age; the technology had already improved.
The argument of need is valid. What really needs to be done to the K7? That's exactly what I'd ask myself if I were in the market for an APS-C DSLR. I'll use Nikon as an example. If I were looking for a D300 I personally would save money and buy a used D300 over a new D300s because to me the D300s was a pointless upgrade. Pentax is in a similar situation. There is very little they can do to a K7 that would help my photography (which is the point in case we forget). About the only thing that would really help me is a better image sensor...and that's something that could be used in multiple products, EVIL included.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The K-7 upgrade must not be delayed by an EVIL.
Do you honestly believe that Pentax couldn't handle upgrading the K7 as well as work on an EVIL? It's not like the K7 is an ugly duckling in a sea of wonderful competition. I would take a K7 over a D300s even though the D300s is newer. In fact the only APS-C DSLR on the market I'd even consider over it is the Canon 7D.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
And the reason is obvious even to a 2-year old: the K-mount system is the one that makes money, for them. You are saying the project that works should become prio #2, at most. No chance in h*ll I'll agree with that.
Yep, you're right. You know why? Because I believe 100% that EVIL's are going to have a larger market share than DSLR's in 10 years. So I think Pentax should focus more on the future then it should on last year. Again, keep on churning out DSLR's to keep people happy, but don't let the EVIL train leave the station and try to catch up after its out of sight.


Last edited by Art Vandelay II; 01-19-2010 at 03:42 PM.
01-19-2010, 02:49 PM   #257
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Not at all, since I am happy with Hoya's current strategy and I will buy one of their next DSLR.
"Pentax lags behind Canikon with respect to AF, SDM, and dSLR because they were late adopters to each" - and you (and Art Vandelay II) think it's a good idea to let that lag widen, by spending precious time developing... something else.
You bring up a good point about limited resources, but you are putting words into my mouth by suggesting that I want the lag in AF, SDM, etc to widen. Pentax will make progress in AF and SDM as they develop the EVIL that can propagate to the successors to the K-x and K7. It makes no sense to update the K-x as it is brand new and selling like hotcakes. Likewise the K7 is still pretty young and nothing more than a mild refresh is needed. My worry is if EVIL is the NEXT BIG THING and Pentax is late to the party again.

QuoteQuote:
No, the K-mount system is not "complete" (I know, I know, no one would ever use a lens longer than 300mm ). By saying that, one truly suggest it should be abandoned (uh, sorry, "keep refining, upgrading, and tweaking over time"). And the K-7 being good enough so it wouldn't need a replacement... utterly ridiculous.
Any gap that exists between the K7 and it's nearest competitors (7D and T1i, D90 and D300s) aren't likely to shift in the next 12 months since they were all released last year.

And for a company with limited resources and that was on life support just a few short months ago, do you really think that one or two new pieces of glass are going to change the fundamental problem - they are not big enough to walk on their own?

The K-x was a life preserver of sorts for Pentax. I would imagine that it sold as much if not more to new Pentaxians as existing ones. Look at all the threads saying more or less the same thing, "I just bought the K-x with the kit lens. What lens should I buy next?"

Pentax needs another crossover hit like that to keep the momentum going - a camera that appeals to both current Pentaxians and brings new ones into the fold. The 645D has some of that potential, albeit at the top end and on a much smaller scale than the K-x. It will have a halo effect on the brand though, like the Corvette in a Chevy showroom, so maybe that's why Hoya gave it the green light. In order for a full-frame to have that effect, it would have to undercut existing full-frame cameras by a significant margin in order to get people to switch. In my mind that means D300s and 7D territory. Anything higher than that and Pentax will be selling to the choir. And a revised K7 is not going to do that unless they cut the price by several hundred dollars.

Of all of these options, I believe that an EVIL with a K-mount adapter has the best chance of continuing the K-x's success. Done right, it may be the reincarnation of the K1000, bringing scores of fresh young amateurs to the Pentax fold that will be in this message boards 20 years from now talking about the good old days.

In any case, this whole discussion is mute, since the plans for this year were probably drawn up months ago...
01-19-2010, 02:54 PM   #258
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Of all of these options, I believe that an EVIL with a K-mount adapter has the best chance of continuing the K-x's success. Done right, it may be the reincarnation of the K1000, bringing scores of fresh young amateurs to the Pentax fold that will be in this message boards 20 years from now talking about the good old days.
..
If Pentax did put out an EVIL I wouldn't be surprised if they launch it with a retro-body and as a direct competitor to the EP-1/EP-2.
01-19-2010, 03:15 PM   #259
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QuoteOriginally posted by lurchlarson Quote
If Pentax did put out an EVIL I wouldn't be surprised if they launch it with a retro-body and as a direct competitor to the EP-1/EP-2.
I vote for the brown Pentax ME SE as a starting point


But I have to say a Canonet would be a better starting point:


They could even implement a better version of the optical zoom viewfinder used in a Canon G10 (similar to what Contax used in their G2) if they are opposed to using Epson's EVF.

Via photo.net:

Contax G2 Viewfinder:

The viewfinder is a zoom telescope. The picture frame area changes automatically depending on focal length of the lens and focusing distance. The viewfinder has information regarding the shutter speed, focus, exposure compensation and flash mark.

Contax G2 - photo.net

01-19-2010, 05:27 PM   #260
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
The argument of need is valid. What really needs to be done to the K7?
Why does the others launch new cameras? Why don't they simply stop? Why don't they put an announcement on their sites, "our cameras are perfect so we won't make new models"?
Your "argument" is ridiculous. But you fail to see even that; I fear no argument I would show, no matter how well put and solid, can reach your ears.

johnmflores, an EVIL can't use the phase-detection AF system, and it won't need a faster mirror for higher fps. Two areas where they are lagging behind, and don't give me the K-7 should only "eventually" be improved BS.
And Pentax, IMHO, should try to move upmarket, you know, on the opposite direction the EVILs are, showing commitment to the K-mount system and to their users, and finding their own strengths instead of following trends (e.g. being just another m4/3 camera maker just because it's sort of trendy). Commitment means resources. Commitment means new products. Commitment means not saying "well, we don't know if we'll go this way or another". If this would not happen, they will lose everything they have - would the small bit gained by going EVIL be enough to compensate? Yeah, right!
As I've said before, you're the Pentax worst enemies. Not happy with what they're successfully making, wanting them to become something else no matter how little sense it makes, or how dangerous it is.
01-19-2010, 06:41 PM   #261
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
just another m4/3 camera maker just because it's sort of trendy
That statement alone pretty much sums up why debating this with you is pointless. You have disparaged EVIL's over and over calling them trendy. You refuse to acknowledge that there might possibly be more to them than that. You certainly aren't open to the idea that they may displace DSLR's (or perhaps you just fear that). As myself and others have laid out over and over they have very real substance behind them (especially if you're street shooter, which is one of Pentax's specialties). They offer some very real advantages that DSLR's will never be able to match (just like DSLR's have advantages EVIL's will never match). That's why Pentax needs to be in both markets. Many people will prefer EVIL's and some will prefer DSLR's. EVIL's aren't going anywhere for a very long time, sooner or later you need to accept that.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Why don't they simply stop? Why don't they put an announcement on their sites, "our cameras are perfect so we won't make new models"?
Stop putting words in other peoples mouths. No one has ever once said they should stop DSLR development, so you saying that while ignoring other very real points being made is a total waste of time.
01-19-2010, 06:52 PM   #262
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
They could even implement a better version of the optical zoom viewfinder used in a Canon G10 (similar to what Contax used in their G2) if they are opposed to using Epson's EVF.
Contax. G2. Rocks. Very good camera, and would be awesome updated for digital. That's what I'd want.

Granted, the CZ lenses were the best o' the best. Made by a photocopier company, and they were sharper than Leica....
01-19-2010, 06:59 PM   #263
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
Contax. G2. Rocks. Very good camera, and would be awesome updated for digital. That's what I'd want.
That's just what excites me so much about EVIL's...the possibilities. Here's a list of the body options off the top of my head:
  1. Rear LCD, no VF
  2. Rear LCD + EVF
  3. Rear LCD + Rangefinder
  4. Rear LCD + Optical zoom (Contax G2)
  5. EVF without an LCD (think how small that could be).
Obviously through the lens optical is missing, but oh well.

01-19-2010, 07:21 PM   #264
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Why does the others launch new cameras? Why don't they simply stop? Why don't they put an announcement on their sites, "our cameras are perfect so we won't make new models"?
Your "argument" is ridiculous. But you fail to see even that; I fear no argument I would show, no matter how well put and solid, can reach your ears.

johnmflores, ...
As I've said before, you're the Pentax worst enemies. Not happy with what they're successfully making, wanting them to become something else no matter how little sense it makes, or how dangerous it is.
I've enjoyed this discussion until recently. Kunzite, you are getting increasingly antagonistic and aggressive in your posts. I don't feel like I need to defend myself against these baseless claims. You don't know me.

Good day sir.
01-19-2010, 08:50 PM   #265
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Some thoughts on the relative merit of EVILs form two other Internet sites. This first, perhaps a bit over-enthusiastic, from wired.com's Gadget lab:

5 Reasons to Ditch Your Digital SLR | Gadget Lab | Wired.com

Given the nature of Wired's readers, this editorial is not surprising. And, now, here's a more-measured take on EVILs from dpnow.com:

Hybrid system cameras, the new alternative to the DSLR? - Digital Photography Now
01-19-2010, 09:33 PM   #266
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Thanks for the links Biro, both are good reads. Wired is obviously hyperbowl and even misinformed in parts (they apparently don't know some DSLR's use 4/3's sensors), but the DP Now article is good. This line stood out to me:

QuoteQuote:
Put simply, around 93% of camera sales are of compact cameras. DSLR cameras may represent the more glamorous and desirable end of the consumer market, but research suggests that a market around three times as large as that of DSLRs is not served by a either compact or DSLR cameras.
Many people (myself included) think small P&S's will be totally replaced my cell phones in the coming years (the new iPhone is rumored to be 5 megapixels). If 93% of the camera market is currently P&S's these companies have to be dreading the day 5mp cell phones are standard issue. I have to admit I use my iPhone 3Gs for snap shots all the time. I have to assume every company knows that and has plans for EVIL's or large sensor compacts at the very least. The next couple years should be fun times for those of us that like high quality small cameras.
01-20-2010, 12:51 AM   #267
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
And Pentax, IMHO, should try to move upmarket, you know, on the opposite direction the EVILs are
It's not really the opposite direction, as EVILs are a sideways direction into a new market.

They already move upmarket by 645D. Adding a move to FF as well which is already contested for since 2002 by companies that together control 80%+ of the DSLR market might be a tad harder than EVILs, even with a few existing FF lens designs still in production.

QuoteQuote:
As I've said before, you're the Pentax worst enemies. Not happy with what they're successfully making, wanting them to become something else no matter how little sense it makes, or how dangerous it is.
Dude, two can play this game too:

You're Pentax's worst enemies. Happy with what they are currently making and their ~4% market share which makes them constantly at risk of making one wrong move and being out for the count.

Wanting them to follow largely the same strategy as they did since 2003, no matter how little sense it makes considering market direction, or how dangerous it is.

Last edited by juu; 01-20-2010 at 12:57 AM.
01-20-2010, 12:54 AM   #268
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
Contax. G2. Rocks. Very good camera, and would be awesome updated for digital. That's what I'd want.
Well, it took 261 posts in this thread but you finally see the light...

Rear LCD + Optical zoom makes sense for the Pentax EVIL (if you can then call it that) as they initially don't have to procure/develop an EVF and it plays into their optical strengths.

They can add a plug-in EVF later for telephoto lenses or something.
01-20-2010, 01:00 AM   #269
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Two quotes from that article that Art didn't quote are:
QuoteQuote:
as many as 20% of buyers wishing to upgrade from a compact camera fail to be enchanted by DSLRs because they are too big and bulky, and complex to use compared to a compact.

[..]

the projected market size for hybrid cameras is around 300% of the current DSLR market, so there is a long way to go, nearly 20 times the current size, yet.
Obviously unsourced, but the article is very accurate otherwise so he probably hasn't pulled those numbers out of thin air, but some marketing survey instead.
01-20-2010, 02:23 AM   #270
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I've enjoyed this discussion until recently. Kunzite, you are getting increasingly antagonistic and aggressive in your posts. I don't feel like I need to defend myself against these baseless claims. You don't know me.

Good day sir.
I'm getting exasperated, seeing that many ridiculous "arguments" (and no, this is not a personal attack). Art Vandelay, insisting that their source of income should be at most prio#2, that the K-mount should be only "eventually" updated - that really was something. And circling around the same "arguments", not seeing even the slightly chance of reaching a common ground...
I am sorry if my tone upset you, this wasn't my intention. Probably I should take a walk away from this thread. Good day to you, too.

Art Vandelay II: don't underestimate the "trendy" thing, since IMHO that's what will push EVILs forward. People buying EVIL because they're "modern" and "new", while not looking at DSLR, as they are "old". Stuff like this.
You clearly said, the K-7 is perfectly adequate for our needs, so it should be only "eventually" updated. So I'm asking you: the others (canikon, mostly) haven't stopped replacing perfectly adequate cameras, why is that? Even the 7D, why did they make it? Wasn't the 50D adequate enough?
You're also ignoring that an EVIL will directly compete with the K-x. On the market, but also for internal resources.

juu, stop including the 645D as an excuse for not developing further the APS-C. Stop saying making DSLRs is a "strategy", unchanged from 2003. Please. It just doesn't make any sense.
And btw, you can't play that "game" very well, since we all know, the K-x beat the most successful m4/3 camera, in Japan. What I'm doing is being supportive to a successful strategy. Why you're doing is saying that a successful strategy should be immediately replaced
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