Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
01-20-2010, 04:05 AM   #271
juu
Veteran Member
juu's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 680
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Stop saying making DSLRs is a "strategy", unchanged from 2003.
If not a strategy, what is it then?

QuoteQuote:
the K-x beat the most successful m4/3 camera, in Japan.
Beat by a 0.5%, and only because Pentax produces 2 DSLRs while Panasonic produces 3 m43 cameras.

Otherwise, Panasonic had 10.2% worth of cameras in the top 10 with GH1 outside it while Pentax had 7.9% worth of cameras with K-7 outside it.

Which is a stronger showing and which brought their companies more profit?


Last edited by juu; 01-20-2010 at 04:56 AM.
01-20-2010, 04:44 AM   #272
Inactive Account




Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUS
Posts: 3,262
QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Well, it took 261 posts in this thread but you finally see the light...

Rear LCD + Optical zoom makes sense for the Pentax EVIL (if you can then call it that) as they initially don't have to procure/develop an EVF and it plays into their optical strengths.

They can add a plug-in EVF later for telephoto lenses or something.
"Or something." Right.
01-20-2010, 04:47 AM   #273
juu
Veteran Member
juu's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 680
QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
"Or something." Right.
Going from long nonsensical rants to short nonsensical one-liners is certainly improvement.

Last edited by juu; 01-20-2010 at 04:55 AM.
01-20-2010, 04:53 AM   #274
juu
Veteran Member
juu's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 680
In other news, we have some more EVIL market size estimates, even though from a company with a vested interest in them:
QuoteQuote:
Samsung was optimistic about the growth of the nascent market segment, projecting that the market would expand to 9 million units in 2015 -- equivalent to that of DSLR cameras.

The mirrorless camera market is expected to grow from 1 million units in 2010 to 5 million units in 2012, Samsung said.
The Korea Herald : The Nation's No.1 English Newspaper

01-20-2010, 05:03 AM   #275
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 8,429
QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
If not a strategy, what is it then?
It's a strategy as much as you could call Toyota making cars a strategy But is it a pick-up truck so similar with a Prius Hybrid?
Saying there was a single "strategy", from the beginning (that would be the MZ-D, that's 2001-ish IIRC) up to the K-7/K-x is, IMHO, incorrect. Trying to be one of the first (and failing), making (finally) a DSLR then a lot of very similar lower market ones (the *istD-series), the K-series, designed to incorporate some of the "newest" technical advancements (SR, SDM, weather sealing) and then, Hoya talking about small, rugged cameras perfect for outdoor use and the plan to weather seal their lenses - all of these aren't a single strategy, just because they're referring to DSLRs.
Going EVIL, FF, MF - that also would qualify as strategic changes. IMHO.

You don't understand, is not about which is a stronger showing. Pentax won't be able to switch places with Panasonic, so few % doesn't really matter. Instead, my reasoning is much simpler: the K-x is very much competitive with the best of m4/3. And it can be made better, it's not a technological dead-end.
Btw, can you see how Olympus is doing? That's a clear hint, going EVIL doesn't mean instant success And maybe Samsung will give you a similar hint... we'll see.

And to clear some misunderstandings, I'm not saying they shouldn't make an EVIL, at all. Instead, they should research this path and prepare for this step, don't jump over it - but proceed with caution.
What I was saying is, I believe making an EVIL now would be at the expense of the K-mount system; I don't want that. I don't want a m4/3 Pentax, I don't want an NX-mount one; I'm a K-mount user - and I want K-mount cameras&lenses. I'm not rejecting a "micro K-mount" idea (an EVIL that could fully use K-mount lenses) but I firmly believe this shouldn't be at the expense of the current product line (the one that makes them money).

P.S. Samsung is only talk.
01-20-2010, 05:24 AM   #276
Inactive Account




Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUS
Posts: 3,262
I'm pretty sure juu is a dot-com CEO.

Who else would have such a poor grasp of finance, time and technology?
01-20-2010, 07:12 AM   #277
Pentaxian
Wheatfield's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The wheatfields of Canada
Posts: 10,043
The EV advocates are, in their lemming-like rush to the cliff are missing out on a few key points.
One is, since the only advantage of EVs is that they are smaller, Pentax would need to go back to the drawing board and come up with a completely new lens line for it.
There is no option to this.
So, instead of finishing off the lens line for the present system, we would likely see the K-mount more or less abandoned (remember this is a rather smallish company with limited R&D).
I'm not seeing this as a smart move, though I expect there are those that think corporate suicide would be.
All this for a step backwards in overall quality.
Smaller sensor = poorer image quality (on several levels)
Smaller sensor = harder to manage DOF
EV = hard to use laggy viewfinder.
All this for the debatable advantage of a smaller, lighter, harder to handhold camera.
Like the days past, the "improvement" doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
The 110 format camera gave us smaller cameras, but the cost in terms of image quality was tremendous.
For that matter, the 35mm camera did the same thing.
01-20-2010, 08:04 AM   #278
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 886
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Art Vandelay II: don't underestimate the "trendy" thing, since IMHO that's what will push EVILs forward. People buying EVIL because they're "modern" and "new", while not looking at DSLR, as they are "old". Stuff like this.
You clearly said, the K-7 is perfectly adequate for our needs, so it should be only "eventually" updated. So I'm asking you: the others (canikon, mostly) haven't stopped replacing perfectly adequate cameras, why is that? Even the 7D, why did they make it? Wasn't the 50D adequate enough?
You're also ignoring that an EVIL will directly compete with the K-x. On the market, but also for internal resources.
Oh I agree, EVIL's are trendy now, and being trendy is a good thing for them. I just take exception to the attitude that there is no substance behind the trend. For the vast majority of people a Panasonic GF1 is all the camera they'll ever need and then some.

I'm not ignoring that EVIL's are competing with the K-x, in-fact I've said many times it is my firm belief that EVIL's will eventually displace entry level DSLR's like the K-x...which is why I want Pentax to make an EVIL in the first place. While big sellers now, I believe entry level DSLR's are lame ducks. So yes, I think those intenal resources should be given to an EVIL over entry level DSLR's. Entry level DSLR's are not complex. What exactly needs to be done to the K-x to make it more appealing to the entry level market aside from selling it cheaper and putting a larger LCD on it?

No the 50D was not adequate enough for Canon. It's direct competition was the Nikon D300; and the D300 was better in every way and they were losing customers to Nikon as a result of it. The K7 is a slightly different beast. It really has no obvious direct competition. Pentax has really carved out a niche with it as the only high quality, weather sealed, small DSLR on the market. I suppose it does compete with the 7D and D300 to some degree, but if you're in the market for a small high end DSLR you have exactly one option. I don't for one second think Pentax should rest on their laurels and not upgrade the K7, but the upgrades it needs shouldn't be exactly taxing on their R&D department.


Last edited by Art Vandelay II; 01-20-2010 at 09:17 AM.
01-21-2010, 12:30 AM   #279
juu
Veteran Member
juu's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 680
QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
I'm pretty sure juu is a dot-com CEO. Who else would have such a poor grasp of finance, time and technology?
lol. I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be making personal attacks on these three subjects, considering the issues you have with all three that stretch far beyond the limits of this thread. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, eh?

Now can you get back to the subject of this thread?

Last edited by juu; 01-21-2010 at 12:38 AM.
01-21-2010, 12:45 AM   #280
Inactive Account




Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUS
Posts: 3,262
Ah, yes. Sorry. You know, god forbid I interrupt you masturbation over EVILs with a bit of reality.

But that's the best you can come up with? "You're not allowed to talk about things that the thread is not about?"

Just out of curiousity, what is your grasp of time, finance and technology - in regards to EVILs, of course?

You haven't said where Pentax is going to get the money for this venture, what would happen to the DSLRs, and as for the more...fanciful aspects half your arguments rely upon, well, it's not much of a stretch to say "In X years time technology will better!"

And, heaven forbid yet again, there are photographers - consumer, enthusiast, or otherwise - out there with different needs to yourself. You have a bad back, business trips, and some kids. Congratulations. You haven't put much thought into this beyond your own specific set of circumstances, have you, juu?
01-21-2010, 12:46 AM   #281
juu
Veteran Member
juu's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 680
In other news, this guy seems to be arguing for Leica to produce an EVIL:
An Open Letter to Leica

What do you think of him?
01-21-2010, 01:13 AM   #282
Pentaxian
gazonk's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Oslo area, Norway
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,509
QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
In other news, this guy seems to be arguing for Leica to produce an EVIL
What if Pentax - instead of computing in the already quite crowded EVIL and FF markets - would release an EVIL FF? The M9 shows that such a camera could be quite compact.
01-21-2010, 01:16 AM   #283
juu
Veteran Member
juu's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 680
QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
Ah, yes. Sorry. You know, god forbid I interrupt you masturbation [..]
lol you should know.

QuoteQuote:
But that's the best you can come up with? "You're not allowed to talk about things that the thread is not about?"
Well, I think this thread is not the best place for you to vent your frustrations about life as ad hominem attacks.

Therefore, yes, I'd like you to stick to the subject of whether Pentax should build an EVIL camera and not get distracted with "omg this guy might have been a CEO 11 years ago" and "omg Japanese like underwear" interjections of little relevance, something you seem inclined to do.

If you want, create a "lithos attempts to insult juu" thread in General Talk or wherever and send me the link, I'll participate. Don't clutter this thread with that.

QuoteQuote:
Just out of curiousity, what is your grasp of time, finance and technology - in regards to EVILs, of course?
Well, it's limited by publicly available information, just like yours, but otherwise quite sufficient, unlike yours. lol.

QuoteQuote:
You haven't said where Pentax is going to get the money for this venture,
They ask their big parent Hoya for it nicely by presenting a profitable business plan. Also the global financial crisis is gradually winding down so capital availability will improve.

QuoteQuote:
what would happen to the DSLRs,
They would get produced until EVILs would gradually displace them, initially in the low-end segment. Then they would eventually turn into niche products.

Note that this will happen with or without Pentax producing an EVIL camera, the only question is whether Pentax stays around to see it.

QuoteQuote:
it's not much of a stretch to say "In X years time technology will better!"
Do you disagree that technology will get better over time?

Furthermore, EVILs can already be produced now. Ones that sell quite well. And this is just the first generation.

QuoteQuote:
there are photographers - consumer, enthusiast, or otherwise - out there with different needs to yourself.
Yes, of course there are.

QuoteQuote:
You have a bad back, business trips, and some kids. Congratulations.
Well, somewhat unusual of you to congratulate me on the first, but thanks for the second two.

QuoteQuote:
You haven't put much thought into this beyond your own specific set of circumstances, have you, juu?
No, I have.

I just think my set of circumstances is more common than the enthusiast or pro set of circumstances. Obviously not in this thread or on these forums, but as a proportion of total potential customers.

And the picture isn't that simple - what matters also is the amount of money each class of a customer will spend on each hypothetical product, ranging from you (buy it on e-bay 10 years later - which is fine and commendable BTW, just not that profitable for Pentax) to, say, Wheatfield (buy it on introduction as he needs it for his work).

So just because I think EVILs will be a profitable product for Pentax because people like me would buy them doesn't mean I haven't put thought into it.

Last edited by juu; 01-21-2010 at 01:23 AM.
01-21-2010, 01:18 AM   #284
juu
Veteran Member
juu's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 680
QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
What if Pentax - instead of computing in the already quite crowded EVIL and FF markets - would release an EVIL FF? The M9 shows that such a camera could be quite compact.
I think that would be another way to carve out a new niche where to be leaders, and thus commendable.

The issue I see is that procurement costs of FF sensors are likely high and that they can never compete w/ m43 on size unless they skip the LCD and keep just an EVF.

But certainly one of the many interesting options they have.
01-21-2010, 07:38 AM   #285
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 886
QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
You haven't said where Pentax is going to get the money for this venture?
I've said many times to scrap their pathetic P&S line up and put that money towards an EVIL system. First off, their P&S line up is so bad the North American president of the company had to buy his P&S from another company. Secondly, EVIL's have a much larger profit margin. Third, I don't think anyone can argue that small sensor P&S's aren't a dead end road. Camera phones will dispose of that entire market in 5-10 years.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
adaptor, camera, cameras, da, dpreview.com, four-thirds, lineup, market, pentax, pentax news, pentax rumors, primes
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
EVIL Camera at Photokina for Pentax ? wll Pentax News and Rumors 19 09-11-2010 06:22 PM
People "The deadly evil Pentax Camera" charliezap Post Your Photos! 6 06-05-2010 05:39 AM
Early review of Sony NEX-3 EVIL camera Urkeldaedalus Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 27 05-24-2010 11:47 AM
Crazy,possibly stupid idea for a Pentax EVIL camera BLD367 Photographic Technique 2 05-07-2010 07:49 AM
Help me build a good kit. (A Virtual Camera Bag) doggydude Photographic Technique 2 12-21-2006 06:37 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:49 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top