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01-07-2010, 04:21 PM   #46
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No

I vote no as well, and here is why. Unless Pentax can figure out a way, either by a lens between the sensor and the actual lens or some software, to utilize the K mount for this EVIL camera, it would mean either joining one of the two competing EVIL lens systems, or creating a third system on their own.

We all know that Pentax does not have the R&D money to develop and market a new camera and lens system, as well as bring out a digital 645 (established market with legacy lenses) as well as keeping the ball rolling with their SLR lineup (go Kx, K7) in addition to continue to make great point and shoots.

So there would be either joining M4/3 or going with the NX system. Since there hasn't been any love lost with Samsung (and since many would rather have their 14mp sensor jettisoned from K7 and pickup Sony's 12mp sensor in the Kx) and since that is an infantile system, I doubt they would join NX

Which leaves M4/3. While I would think they could more than formidable in m4/3, especially if they remembered to create excellent lenses for the frugally-minded, they could give Panasonic a run for their money. BUT, it takes time to design and fully bake a camera, and would/could they really get their name out there, when they already have problems in their existing markets.

To me, my old ME Super doesn't look any thicker than the new NX, so I think Pentax would be wise continuing what its doing - namely deflating the size of the SLR body. Bring out a new M series - I just lined my ME with my K10 (both with 50mm MF lenses on) and the front of the ME's lens is right at the aperature ring. It seems to me the biggest reason these cameras are really so thick is because the sensor and lcd are stacked on top of each other. Grab some oLEDs, jettison SR at first for these bodies, and market the hell out of them. Heck, remove the pentaprism from one of this new line and really see how small they get.

Separate your SLRs into 3 lines - the K series (inexpensive, feature laden), the M (super small, retro styled, premium), and L (FF, AF 645 adapter etc)

01-07-2010, 05:10 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Daedbird Quote
To me, my old ME Super doesn't look any thicker than the new NX
If they make a digital ME Super (complete with full frame sensor) then I'm all for that. I've just given up hope on such a camera. For some reason every single manufacturer thinks that we have to have DSLR's with giant grips on the front. SLR's didn't have front grips for 30 years and people got along just fine.

Olympus is the only company that made something close to a classic SLR with their E-420/450. However those cameras had one unforgivable flaw, their awful viewfinders (the IQ was nothing to write home about either). Once upon a time we had viewfinders larger than what comes in the Canon 1Ds in cameras smaller than a Pentax K-x. However, over time the cameras grew while the viewfinders shrank. I've only found two viewfinders I don't mind using side-by-side with my Pentax LX; the Canon 1Ds and the Sony A900/850. It's a shame the 1Ds is about 3x's as large as the LX and the Sony is twice as large.

Last edited by Art Vandelay II; 01-07-2010 at 06:41 PM.
01-07-2010, 06:09 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
The K-x is two ISO stops better.

IMO, EVIL is the future, it's by far the largest growth area in cameras.
This is sort of misleading.
I'ts a fairly new product type, so any increase in sales is going to appear to be fast growing.
If they sell one camera in 2008, and 4 cameras in 2009, then their sales growth looks incredible (400%), but the reality is, they've sold 5 cameras.
I know a few photographers who have bought Panasonic EV cameras, and while they do use them, they haven't switched over from their DSLRs.
01-07-2010, 06:51 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
This is sort of misleading.
I'ts a fairly new product type, so any increase in sales is going to appear to be fast growing.
If they sell one camera in 2008, and 4 cameras in 2009, then their sales growth looks incredible (400%), but the reality is, they've sold 5 cameras.
I know a few photographers who have bought Panasonic EV cameras, and while they do use them, they haven't switched over from their DSLRs.
You are correct and there is another factor as well. Bridge cameras accounted for lots of sales too, but they were never included in lists of DSLR sales. So we dont know whether the Micro cams are taking sales from bridge cameras or from SLRs, only that they are selling in reasonable numbers.

01-07-2010, 07:17 PM   #50
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http://photorumors.com/2010/01/07/pentax-evil-645d-price-rumors/

Photorumors.com is saying Pentax will release a re-badged Samsung NX this year. However, they don't say where they're getting that rumor from.

They also say the 645D will be released in march, and only $6500. That will be a huge hit if they can bring it in at that price.
01-07-2010, 08:34 PM   #51
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I posted a comment on that dpr discussion and di dnot realise the current lenses could not be used. However, Pentax should have been all overe this years ago, all over it. They have years of experience and expertise in desiging small, high quality primes. Surely most of the work is done and they can just re-do the mount and make as few changes as they can to make them work.

Something like the Oly PEN, with Pentax primes on it just SCREAMS a sa great travel light camera, particularly on holiday in cities.

I cannot understand why they have been so slow to get moving on it, it's right up their alley of competitive advantage.
01-07-2010, 10:39 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Worse, if they decided to make the new lenses fully electronic (aperture and focus) then no adapter could achieve complete functionality with old Pentax lenses which I suspect will be true of the new Samsung.
Abandoning legacy glass is not the Pentax way. Of all the dSLR makers, Pentax has worked hardest to maintain compatibility. Do you have any reason to conjecture otherwise?

QuoteQuote:
Basically, Panasonic and Samsung want to compete with SLRs but can't (the big five own and share all the patents) so they got uppity an decided they should make micro cameras into "system" cameras.
This has worked for Panasonic so far, with the GF1 appearing twice in Amazon's Top 25. I doubt they could have broken into the Top 25 with a traditional FourThirds dSLR.

QuoteQuote:
However, if Canon were to produce a compact fixed IS zoom APSC mirrorless camera for $400 with the current 500D sensor, they would wipe out most of the Micro camera market overnight. Moreover a fixed zoom lens could be optimised for video with AF.
This brings up a couple of interesting points. First, I wonder how super-zooms and bridge cameras compare with entry level dSLRs, in terms of volume sales and profitability? They were written off a couple of years ago, but maybe they've sprung back? If you click on the link, you'll see an interesting comment - bridge cameras didn't take off in the film era either. Is it because the idea of being able to swap lenses with a dSLR makes it seem less prone to obsolescence, kind of like the idea of four wheel drive in places where it snows 3 times a year?

So while I agree with you about the benefits of a compact fixed IS zoom camera - I can name five people off the top of my head that would be better served by a Canon G11 than the dSLR that they now own - I think that some people get seduced by the potential of growth and buy an entry-level dSLR, even if they never use that potential. Buying something like a camera, after all, isn't always a rational process. If it was, then advertising wouldn't work. Yet it does.

Secondly, maybe we are trivializing the challenge of producing a truly good compact of Interchangeable Lens compact. It seems so easy on the Internet, yet each one brought to market has carried significant compromises with it. So maybe you can't assume that a Canon or a Nikon can just come in and sweep up. Sony tried just the formula you described a couple of years ago and flopped.

QuoteQuote:
There IS however a niche for high quality (high priced) digital rangefinders (silent shutter, high synch speed) for photojournalism as a complimentary camera to a D3x or 1Ds. 3-4 compact and pancake primes would cover it (11/22/44/88mm). Retro styling would work best here.

Somehow I cant see Panasonic or Samsung being happy with a niche, but Olympus and Leica, and even perhaps Ricoh.....?
I could also see Pentax playing in this space with an EVIL version of the K-x. It fits perfectly with their trend towards small yet high quality. I'd buy one in a second to complement and back up my existing bodies and bring it mated to a DA40 Limited everywhere I went.

I guess where we disagree is how the entry-level dSLR market is best served. You rightfully argue that that the interchangeability is typically unnecessary. On a rational basis, I agree, but we are not always rational creatures.

11 of the top 25 Interchangeable Lens cameras on Amazon are sub $600 entry-level dSLRs. Whoever can break the status quo stands to gain a lot. I hope it's Pentax.
01-08-2010, 01:11 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Photorumors.com is saying Pentax will release a re-badged Samsung NX this year. However, they don't say where they're getting that rumor from.
Iirc, Pentax said the NX is Samsung-only, they had no contribution on it. And they are not interested in EVIL (at least for now).

Btw, to make small, quality primes for an EVIL camera - that means Pentax must design them from scratch. How many non-retrofocus wides they have?

01-08-2010, 02:05 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
However, if Canon were to produce a compact fixed IS zoom APSC mirrorless camera for $400 with the current 500D sensor, they would wipe out most of the Micro camera market overnight.
Well, if they haven't done it yet, it probably means either that they cannot do that, or that they think it will also destroy their entry-level DSLR business.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
This is sort of misleading.
I'ts a fairly new product type, so any increase in sales is going to appear to be fast growing.
Yes, there is a bit of that. However, by this time m43 is also capturing a fair bit of market share in absolute numbers and the cameras are probably also very profitable.
01-08-2010, 05:04 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alfisti Quote
I posted a comment on that dpr discussion and di dnot realise the current lenses could not be used. However, Pentax should have been all overe this years ago, all over it. They have years of experience and expertise in desiging small, high quality primes. Surely most of the work is done and they can just re-do the mount and make as few changes as they can to make them work.
If the flange to focal plane distance is shortened to make a more compact body, the present lens line will not work.
It's not a question of changing the mount, its the mount registration distance.

I wonder how many people wanting a more compact Pentax EV camera realize that they will likely loose the ability to use their present lenses.
01-08-2010, 05:52 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I wonder how many people wanting a more compact Pentax EV camera realize that they will likely loose the ability to use their present lenses.
You can still have full functionality with existing lenses as long as the adapter bridges the electronics from camera to lens. That's what M4/3 is doing. Of course adding an adapter makes the lens protrude more.
01-08-2010, 06:01 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
You can still have full functionality with existing lenses as long as the adapter bridges the electronics from camera to lens. That's what M4/3 is doing. Of course adding an adapter makes the lens protrude more.
As I understand, the EVIL cameras generally don't have built-in AF motors so unless the lens has a built-in AF motor then you lose AF functionality.

I'm not sure if there are any ways around it.
01-08-2010, 06:09 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
As I understand, the EVIL cameras generally don't have built-in AF motors so unless the lens has a built-in AF motor then you lose AF functionality.

I'm not sure if there are any ways around it.
In that case, my interest in a Pentax EVIL camera is officially dead.

On an unrelated note; I don't like the ILC nickname that DPR wants to use. To me, a compact camera is completely unrelated to its size, some compacts are quite large. "Compact" should relate only to sensor size. I wouldn't call an NX-10 a compact, but I would call a much larger FZ-28 a compact.
01-08-2010, 07:38 AM   #59
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Yes, I also prefer EVIL to ILC. It has a certain zing to it
01-08-2010, 07:53 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I wonder how many people wanting a more compact Pentax EV camera realize that they will likely loose the ability to use their present lenses.
Speak for yourself, I'm guessing my M, K, and A series manual glass will work just fine via adapter.

As for AF lenses, they should be able to make an adapter that allows for AF on the newer SDM lenses just like Olympus has done. I also wonder if it's possible to make an adapter with a built in motor to drive non-SDM lenses.

Either way, I don't really care. I'm not worried about legacy lenses. I only need 3 lenses for a camera like this, a 24mm pancake, a 50mm pancake, and a 135mm (all in 35mm terms). And I'd prefer them all to be of the modern SDM variety; and Pentax currently has none of the above.

But, as stated earlier, I'd prefer them just make a full frame digital ME Super to compete against the Leica M9 at 1/4 the cost.
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