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02-10-2010, 02:15 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Do you have a link to Year 2000 Pentax Press release?

February 2001 was earliest official Pentax Full Frame press release I could locate.

Year 2000 links would be great to add to the thread
Here you go, even with product shots at the Photokina:

Photokina Report Part 4: Digital Photography Review
Photokina report update: Digital Photography Review
Cameras

I wrote myself about Photokina in Germany's Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung and mentioned the MZ-D..., but that's in German and not online available.

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02-10-2010, 03:42 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
$7,000 in 2001 USA Dollar Bills

Man, thats alot of money.

Had Pentax made Full Frame K Mount available in "Summer 2001" they'd be on the 3rd or 4th version by now.

Pentax would have beat Nikon to full frame market, by several years.
I agree, sadly Pentax is now far behind the Nikon/Canon brigade. Even the independent lens manufacturers recognize the likes of Sony over Pentax with their ranges omitting Pentax from the line-up
02-10-2010, 03:55 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rees Quote
I agree, sadly Pentax is now far behind the Nikon/Canon brigade. Even the independent lens manufacturers recognize the likes of Sony over Pentax with their ranges omitting Pentax from the line-up
Yes, Pentax is very late in some things (Canon's first USM lens was released in '87) and Canon and Nikon have a bigger selection of telephoto lenses. Canon has many high-tech primes. However, Sony is in a weird position. Take a look at their lens lineup. None of them are weather sealed and the selection of professional lenses is thin (or 0 if you consider weather sealing a required feature). '09 was a disaster for Sony DSLRs.

Last edited by asdf; 02-10-2010 at 04:04 AM.
02-10-2010, 04:57 AM   #19
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Wasn't the ME Super exactly 10 years late? How many of those did they sell? I agree that it is very late in the digital world but history does repeat itself....

02-10-2010, 06:13 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve Beswick Quote
2112 you say? So Pentax will only make a FF camera when demanded by the Preists of the Temple of Syrinx?

do I win the Obscure Joke Reference for today?
I can't believe you'd refer to Rush's best album as obscure. That was back when Geddy could hit those high notes too! (Fun side note: the album was pretty heavily inspired by Ayn Rand's "Anthem")
02-10-2010, 08:23 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by fwbigd Quote

FF SENSORS ARE FOR ONLY A SELECT FEW BECAUSE OF COST. THE MASS MARKET IS STILL IN APS SENSOR BASED CAMERAS.
I'm going to have to disagree with you somewhat. Canon's 5D is a HUGELY popular model for even entry level Canon users. Since it is a few years old it can be had for around $1000 and still produces excellent images. The 5d2 and D700 are also popular, but I would agree that they aren't being purchased as much by the average consumer due to higher costs.

I think that some people do hype full-frame too much and that crop sensors are good enough for the average consumer, but there are definite advantages to having full-frame such as:

shallow depth of field due to framing differences
lower noise at high ISO's
easier access to ultrawide prime lenses
(theoretically)better image quality.
larger,brighter viewfinder


I would think that a full-frame camera for Pentax would be a welcome addition to join with the excellent prime lens lineup. The larger viewfinder makes manual focusing easier as well, which is good for those using older lenses that can't autofocus.
02-10-2010, 09:29 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by str8talk83 Quote
I'm going to have to disagree with you somewhat. Canon's 5D is a HUGELY popular model for even entry level Canon users. Since it is a few years old it can be had for around $1000 and still produces excellent images. The 5d2 and D700 are also popular, but I would agree that they aren't being purchased as much by the average consumer due to higher costs.

...
I would think that a full-frame camera for Pentax would be a welcome addition to join with the excellent prime lens lineup. The larger viewfinder makes manual focusing easier as well, which is good for those using older lenses that can't autofocus.
Today FF cameras play a niche role, whether you like it or not. The trade-off between their advantages and their disadvantages (price and form factor being the most important ones), make FF cameras not the prefered choice for consumers or even avid amateurs.

Here are the real numbers from 2008:
Best selling DSLRs in Japan in 2008 (almost) - too close to call! - 1001 Noisy Cameras

The best selling FF DSLR (Nikon 700) has just a 1% market share and the TOP 19 of smaller format DSLRs have a combined share of app. > 91%. That leaves a residue of near 8% which is shared between ALL FF DSLRs and a number of other APS DSLRs, which did not make it into the Top 20. So, all in all the FF DSLR market share in 2008 was app. 4-5%.

Though reliable info on numbers is scarce, it seems, that in 2009, no single FF DSLR gained the 1% again…

It looks, as whether small form factors and a low price tag are much more important to the buyer than a probably IQ advantage, which costs more than an arm and a leg. This would be emphasized by the raving success of the m4/3 system.

Ben
02-10-2010, 09:44 AM   #23
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5D Mark II seems to have 2.1% Japan sales in 2009

5D Mark II seems to have 2.1% Japan sales in 2009

Nikon's lack of HD in D700, Sony's lack of HD in a900 and a850 I assume hurt them in both 2009 and I'll guess continue to hurt them in 2010 till they both compete with 5D Mark II HD feature. I can see why Sony won't go there, no desire to cut into their HandyCams market.

Still 2.1% isn't alot of the interchangeable lens digital imaging pie and this is in Japan's market only:


Ranking Camera Market Share
1 Canon EOS Rebel T1i / EOS Kiss X3 15.9
2 Canon Digital Rebel XSi / EOS Kiss X2 13.2
3 Nikon D90 9.1
4 Nikon D5000 6.6
5 Nikon D60 5.4
6 Nikon D40 5.1
7 Panasonic G1 4.2
8 Canon 50D 3.5
9 Olympus E-P1 3.0
10 Panasonic GF1 2.7
11 Pentax K-m 2.5
12 Sony A300 2.2
13 Canon 5DII 2.1
14 Nikon D3000 1.8
15 Sony A350 1.8
16 Pentax K-x 1.8
17 Canon 7D 1.6
18 Canon 1000D 1.6
19 Panasonic GH1 1.6
20 Olympus E-520 1.3




Olympus and Panasonic rumors Blog Archive Japanese DSLR sales ranking of the whole year 2009!


Interesting observation I'll add:

In Japan in 2009 more Canon 5D Mark II were sold than Pentax K-x

If Sony isn't motivated to add higher spec HD architecture in the sensors they use and sensors they also sell to Nikon and Pentax, when will these companies who use Sony made sensors be able compete HD spec versus HD spec against Canon ? 2010? 2011 ? 2012? I think Canon in 2010 will gain market traction soley due to their ever improving HD implementation in dslrs.

Yeah I know photographers hate HD Dslrs, and everyone else who doesn't know better just buys them up, and right now the best company at HD is Canon. Their new T2i will be a competition killer for 2010. Crap, I may buy one just for best HD Canon offers and $799 price point almost makes it a mindless decision, for me.

edit, edit


Last edited by Samsungian; 02-10-2010 at 09:57 AM.
02-10-2010, 09:54 AM   #24
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Refering to what you stated about market share
Pentax K-m 2,5
Pentax K-x 1,8
ANd think about tha k-x was distributed only in december as far as I remember.. thats a huge gain for pentax..
02-10-2010, 10:15 AM   #25
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K-x is 100 colors in Japan versus 5D Mark II in One Color

K-x is 100 colors in Japan versus 5D Mark II in One Color

K-x is what? Maybe 20% the cost of 5D Mark II ?

I wonder who made more profit on each in 2009, Hoya with K-x or Canon with 5D Mark II ?

Don't get me wrong making K-x in 100 colors is brilliant marketing move for Pentax.

Pentax is "Outdoorsman" camera brand , yet K-x is not weather sealed.

Whether Canon and Nikon chose to compete with the color choice spec remains to be seen in 2010.
02-10-2010, 10:22 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
02-10-2001~02-10-2010

Has it been 9 years since Pentax showed off that full frame k mount dslr?


Press release:

PENTAX PREVIEWS A NEW PROFESSIONAL DIGITAL AUTOFOCUS SLR CAMERA
DENVER, Colorado (February 10, 2001) . . . PENTAX Corporation will preview a new digital autofocus SLR camera (which has not yet been named) at the PMA (Photo Marketing Association) Show held in Orlando, February 11-14, 2001. The addition of this advanced digital SLR camera complements one of the most extensive photographic lines of any manufacturer in the industry including 35mm, APS, medium format and digital for various levels of photographers.


Created along the same developmental concept lines as the new PENTAX MZ-S professional 35mm autofocus SLR camera, this high-end digital SLR will feature a 35mm-film-sized, six megapixel CCD image sensor as well as a DSP and other digital processing components. This package was jointly developed with Philips Electronics in order to realize high-grade image quality, top-level performance and compact dimensions simultaneously. Offering compatibility with the existing PENTAX KAF2 lens mount, it will also accept PENTAX 645-system and 67-system interchangeable lenses (when used with an adapter). This high-performance digital autofocus SLR camera will be ideal for advanced amateurs and professionals who demand top quality images and SLR maneuverability.

The camera will be compatible with four new accessories introduced for the new MZ-S 35mm SLR camera including: 1.) BG-10 Battery Grip, 2.) CS-105 & CS-130 Cable Switches, 3.) TS-110 Release Timer Switch, and the 4.) AF360FGZ Dedicated Flash Unit. The final product specifications, pricing and marketing dates will be announced at a later time.


Re-read that last statement in the 9 year old press release:




The final product specifications, pricing and marketing dates will be announced at a later time.






Pentax 6mp Digital SLR hands-on: Digital Photography Review


Features and specifications (so far)
Body Pentax design magnesium alloy case
Type SLR (body only)
Imager Philips 6 megapixel CCD
35mm full frame
12-bit progressive scan
12 µm pixel pitch
Image resolution 3072 x 2048
Image types JPEG, TIFF, RAW
Shutter speed Up to 1/6000 sec
Metering TTL six-segment metering
Lens mount Pentax KAF2 mount (645N & 67II lenses can be used)
Focus 6-point AF
Viewfinder TTL optical (true TTL)
LCD 2 inch TFT
Flash Built-in retractable flash unit (TTL)
Storage Dual slots:
one Compact Flash Type II
one PCMCIA Type II
Connectivity IEEE1394 (Firewire)
Sale date Summer 2001
Sale price Expected ~$7,000
And that's what eventually became known as the *ist D. Pentax took the camera body, designed for a fill-frame sensor, and stuck an APS-C chip in it at the last moment. Compare the mirrors of the *ist D to the DS- you'll see that the D has a 35mm mirror while the DS has an APS-C mirror.

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02-10-2010, 10:38 AM   #27
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For December and January, the K-x had about 7.9% from Japanese market, and that's much better than the 5DMkII (or any other FF). To say "In Japan in 2009 more Canon 5D Mark II were sold than Pentax K-x", while technically true, it's misleading - as noted by a previous poster, the K-x was on the market only for what, 3 months in 2009? (it was announced in September), while the 5DMkII was announced at Photokina - on the market for the whole year.
And Samsungian, being told about and ignoring such facts - you are doing this on purpose.

Adam, the "MZ-S Digital" was built based on the MZ-S body, very much different from the *istD. The *istD was built from scratch.
02-10-2010, 10:41 AM   #28
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I thought I read the 35mm mirror in istD* was refuted?

I thought I read in this forum somewhere the 35mm full frame mirror size in istD* was refuted?

I don't know, I don't own a istD* to compare.

Have you got comparison images of the istD* mirror size versus aps-c mirror size posted in the forum somewhere ?

Last edited by Samsungian; 02-10-2010 at 10:46 AM.
02-10-2010, 10:43 AM   #29
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So how about the statement no full frames sold more than 1% in 2009 in japan ???

So how about the earlier statement no full frames sold more than 1% in 2009 in Japan ???

Should we exclude 5D Mark II sales percentage from Japan 2009 sales to make that statement true ?


2010 sales should prove more enlightening. A moving target for sure. K-x is HOT Now.



Heck I may buy another new camera in 2010 ,but not in Japan, so that sale doesn't matter. Really come to think about it, I bet very few of us buy our cameras in Japan. So none of us and what we buy matter in this conversation.





QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
For December and January, the K-x had about 7.9% from Japanese market, and that's much better than the 5DMkII (or any other FF). To say "In Japan in 2009 more Canon 5D Mark II were sold than Pentax K-x", while technically true, it's misleading - as noted by a previous poster, the K-x was on the market only for what, 3 months in 2009? (it was announced in September), while the 5DMkII was announced at Photokina - on the market for the whole year.
And Samsungian, being told about and ignoring such facts - you are doing this on purpose.

Adam, the "MZ-S Digital" was built based on the MZ-S body, very much different from the *istD. The *istD was built from scratch.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
Today FF cameras play a niche role, whether you like it or not. The trade-off between their advantages and their disadvantages (price and form factor being the most important ones), make FF cameras not the prefered choice for consumers or even avid amateurs.

Here are the real numbers from 2008:
Best selling DSLRs in Japan in 2008 (almost) - too close to call! - 1001 Noisy Cameras

The best selling FF DSLR (Nikon 700) has just a 1% market share and the TOP 19 of smaller format DSLRs have a combined share of app. > 91%. That leaves a residue of near 8% which is shared between ALL FF DSLRs and a number of other APS DSLRs, which did not make it into the Top 20. So, all in all the FF DSLR market share in 2008 was app. 4-5%.

Though reliable info on numbers is scarce, it seems, that in 2009, no single FF DSLR gained the 1% again…



Ben

Last edited by Samsungian; 02-10-2010 at 10:52 AM.
02-10-2010, 10:48 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
I thought I read in this forum somewhere the 35mm full frame mirror size in istD* was refuted?

I don't know, I don't own a istD* to compare.

Have you got comparison images of the istD* mirror size versus aps-c mirror size posted in the forum somewhere ?
Judge for yourself.

*ist D:
Pentax *ist D Review: 4. Body & Design: Digital Photography Review

*ist DS:
Pentax *ist DS Review: 4. Body & Design: Digital Photography Review

(scroll about 3/4 way down)
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