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02-13-2010, 02:53 PM   #151
emr
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QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
Honestly, how many on here would buy one even at $6500?
Can't really know, can we. But I bet there are members who already have a significant range of Pentax 645 lenses and are willing to pay that much. Admitting, that as a used-to-be-the-best-bang-for-the-buck-brand Pentax probably atracts price-conscious customers.


Last edited by emr; 02-13-2010 at 03:39 PM.
02-13-2010, 03:20 PM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by emr Quote
OK, I'm as excited as anyone here over that Pentax is releasing, not a full frame, but an ber full frame camera. But what will one actually gain from the bigger sensor provided it's implemented properly? Higher dynamic range, more sensitivity, more pixels, right? So who's expected to use one of these beasts (and who's using the competing digital MF cameras)? Pro landscape photographers? Fashion photographers who print BIG? Who else? Naturally, if the price is right, many amateurs here may buy one, but who really needs one or actually gains from one?
Go to any of the online forums where medium format digital photographers gather and you would be surprised on how many non professional photographers currently use MFD. Tonalty and detail and not necessarily large prints may be one of the reasons. Real Esate matters in capturing images whether film or sensor. Otherwise we would all shoot point and shoots as they are less expensive and smaller.

But you could also ask who uses medium or large format film, ultra large format film (say 20X24 cameras) pinhole and toy cameras, dry or wet plate? What about those who use digital backs on large format cameras? There are all kinds of different photographic needs and genre which may not be satisfied by the mass market or consumer/prosumer line of equipment.

When I used the Nikor 200 2.0, as a landscape photographer I did not question who needs this lens as normally when I shoot the rocks and trees do not move that fast and the camera is on a tripod; however the owner of that lens shoots with high speed cameras and also indoor hockey so his needs are different from mine. Should I question who needs either a fast lens or a long lens just because I do not need one?

As I had advised on an earlier posting go to getdpiforums and see how many people are actually using MFD and for what rather than dismiss it. If you want to talk about a beast of a camera look no further than the D3 Nikon for example yet so many want Pentax to build one to match or exceed that without the weight of course. There are lots of purchasers of MFD who are buying in the 16 to 39 megapixel range as not everyone is even wanting the 50 or 60 Meg backs. I most likely would get a MFD before FF digital but I do understand that most people here would be the opposite, neither is right nor wrong just different ways of looking at the world through a viewfinder. At a similair price as the D3X the Pentax will attrack only some of the same users but also attrack others with no interest in the FF digital cameras. Those who see the FF for sports or wildlife would most likely not look at the Pentax. But there are so many different uses and users and thankfully we are not all stuck with the one format. I stay amazed on how many on this forum are clamering for FF and yet do not see how an even larger format would be of any use (and I am not referring only to or specifically to the poster I have quoted.
02-13-2010, 03:34 PM   #153
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I'm afraid my post gave the wrong impression. I'm not at all dismissing 645D or digital MF but rather quite honestly asking what are the uses that benefit from a camera like this. Thanks for the getdpiforums suggestion, I'll take a look just out of curiosity.
02-13-2010, 06:32 PM   #154
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I think 39M at $6,500 is bogus speculation

Somehow I don't think we'll be getting 39M at $6,500. My guess is more like 31M with a cropped sensor. Or, it would be smart marketing to offer both sizes at different price points. Why?...

First, the 39M figure seems to come from speculation that Pentax is using the KAF-39000, which has a 61mm diagonal image size in a 4:3 aspect ration, pretty close to the 70mm normal lens of 645 film. Well, if they are working with Kodak, why not the KAF-31600 which is 55mm diagonal, which gives an acceptable crop of 1.27, and helps you get to a killer price point, which is necessary for Pentax to get back in the game.

(1) As OGL noted, Mamiya (Dalsa sensor?) is selling 33M at $17K, the Leica (Kodak sensor) at 37.5M costs $23K and Hassy at 39M is $22K. PhaseOne has moved to Dalsa sensors and offers 39M at $20-23K. If the 645D sells at half those prices, we're looking at $8.5K for 31M and $10K for 39M.

Either price would certainly be a market shock.

(2) These processors aren't cheap, and yields are difficult. I'm guessing that a 31M sensor doesn't OEM for much less than $2,000 and a 39M for $3,000? If a retail product sells for 4 to 5 times the price of the parts, then we can understand the Mamiya pricing: 33M at $17K. A Pentax 645D 31M at $6,500 has to mean sensor prices lower than $2k which still leaves little room for profit and re-couping R&D. But, I still can't imagine we'd see 39M at $6,500.

Maybe Kodak can offer a good price. These chips are five years old, and since PhaseOne changed from Kodak to Dalsa, they may be desperate for a customer for the 645 format sensors. Leica is still with Kodak on sensors for M9 and S2 cameras. Did an exclusive contract Keep prices high and Kodak from selling to Pentax?

(3) High pixel-count FF cameras in the 35MM format include Nikon, Canon, Leica and Sony, with 18M - 24M pixels. Prices range from $2,000 to $8,000. The Sony price is rather stunning (what's the sensor OEM price!?), and must be an indication of what it takes to compete against Nikon and Canon. I assume that Nikon will soon announce a D700x pro-sumer camera at 24M, but I bet it will be closer to or over $3,000.

Pentax is late to this market, and certainly has its work cut out for it.
- They have to come out with a market-changing price,
- sell enough bodies to pay for R&D (and stay in business)
- create a new market (Pro-sumer landscape?, Amateur wedding?)
- compete with high-pixel FF 35mm like Nikon, Canon and Sony.

Would $6,500 for a 31M camera do that?

What about $9,500 for 39M camera?

What does 645 digital do that 18-24M FF 35mm can't?

02-13-2010, 06:47 PM   #155
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Set of 42 645D Images?

Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen these 42 images referenced here on the 645D speculation list. The haptics look good (if that isn't an oxymoron), reminding me of the 645N, which feels so much like a high-quality, pro SLR, with a shutter that sounds like "a jet engine taking off" (Ken Rockwell, I think).

In particular, I find this image most interesting, which shows a hinged back for easy access, cleaning or replacement (?) of the sensor and computer package.

I also note that they have a 75mm lens mounted. Mirror Lock-up is cool.
02-13-2010, 10:10 PM   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by emr Quote
I'm afraid my post gave the wrong impression. I'm not at all dismissing 645D or digital MF but rather quite honestly asking what are the uses that benefit from a camera like this. Thanks for the getdpiforums suggestion, I'll take a look just out of curiosity.

Perhaps I should not have singled out your posting. In digital same as with film the advantages of larger format is more for tonalty and quality of image than print size and certainly not for speed. On getdpiforum many of those with MFD also have or have had the top Canon or even Nikon full frame cameras and in comparing them have stated there is no comparision in images produced. But one should not expect fast shooting or even low light performance. Those are not MFD forte and when comparing specs MF falls short of what DSLRs will produce but numbers are not everything. In using vehicle analogies which some here do not like, compare 0-60 and top speed between a Honda Civic and a Ford F-250 and the Honda is the clear winner but then attach a large heavy trailer behind and the Ford does not even slow down and the Civic is in slow motion. TAke a look at the details in a product brochure and compare it to a magazine page and the latter is usually lower in detail. Not sure if brochures are always shot in the larger format but an example of when more quailty is needed and the cost of the MFD is very low in comparision of the cost of producing a million car brochures for example.

The problem with looking at images on the web of course is you cannot see the full difference due to the low res of the web. I am willing to take the words of those who own and use both systems on a regular basis and whose reputations depend on using the right tool for the job they are being paid to do. One can currently get a camera, lens and digital back for under 13K which might be high for some on this forum but when a bicycle frame costs half that and a powerboat more and it was not that long ago that some home entertainment systems came close to that is it really out of the reach of regular people?
02-14-2010, 03:10 AM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by MetaD Quote
Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen these 42 images referenced here on the 645D speculation list. The haptics look good (if that isn't an oxymoron), reminding me of the 645N, which feels so much like a high-quality, pro SLR, with a shutter that sounds like "a jet engine taking off" (Ken Rockwell, I think).

In particular, I find this image most interesting, which shows a hinged back for easy access, cleaning or replacement (?) of the sensor and computer package.

I also note that they have a 75mm lens mounted. Mirror Lock-up is cool.
This is the old prototype. Newer is different. And yes, it will be a cropped format anyway.
02-14-2010, 06:32 AM   #158
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2008 Kodak 50mp Sensor retail cost was $3,500

2008 Kodak 50mp Sensor retail cost was $3,500



Anybody care to speculate Hassy looses money on their $25,195 50mp medium format platform that the Kodak 50mp $3,500 sensor is installed in ???



Hasselblad | H3DII-50 Digital SLR Camera (Body Only) | 70380542



And Hassy 50mp sensor info including its 2008 $3,500 retail cost

EEProductCenter.com :: Kodak delivers next-generation 50-MP CCD image sensor

02-14-2010, 10:20 AM   #159
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I think the 50mp sensor would put the price in the $15-18K range. I agree with MetaD that there is a realistic possibility that Pentax will go with the KAF-31600, especially if there are anything to the $6500 rumors. It would be slick if Pentax could come up with a replaceable sensor body. It seems if all of this is traced back to an actual Pentax quote etc., 30mp is the number stated. I still think there is a chance to see the 50mp. There are 3 out comes, that both rumors are correct, 1 rumor is correct ( 2 possibilities) and both are wrong giving us a total of 4 possibilities for the $6500 39mp speculation. This is all like a big circle jerk since PhotoRumors actually site this forum on some of this stuff. Hysterical
02-14-2010, 10:49 AM   #160
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I think 645D will carry more than 31 MP.
02-14-2010, 11:23 AM   #161
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
Perhaps I should not have singled out your posting. In digital same as with film the advantages of larger format is more for tonalty and quality of image than print size and certainly not for speed. On getdpiforum many of those with MFD also have or have had the top Canon or even Nikon full frame cameras and in comparing them have stated there is no comparision in images produced. But one should not expect fast shooting or even low light performance. Those are not MFD forte and when comparing specs MF falls short of what DSLRs will produce but numbers are not everything. In using vehicle analogies which some here do not like, compare 0-60 and top speed between a Honda Civic and a Ford F-250 and the Honda is the clear winner but then attach a large heavy trailer behind and the Ford does not even slow down and the Civic is in slow motion. TAke a look at the details in a product brochure and compare it to a magazine page and the latter is usually lower in detail. Not sure if brochures are always shot in the larger format but an example of when more quailty is needed and the cost of the MFD is very low in comparision of the cost of producing a million car brochures for example.

The problem with looking at images on the web of course is you cannot see the full difference due to the low res of the web. I am willing to take the words of those who own and use both systems on a regular basis and whose reputations depend on using the right tool for the job they are being paid to do. One can currently get a camera, lens and digital back for under 13K which might be high for some on this forum but when a bicycle frame costs half that and a powerboat more and it was not that long ago that some home entertainment systems came close to that is it really out of the reach of regular people?
See this is what I think is so interesting about this whole 645d question. I'm wondering if the folks at Pentax see the new prosumer faction as not the $4k bodies, but $10k bodies. I wonder if they're shifting that very profitable battleground onto there.
02-15-2010, 03:36 AM   #162
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More information, less speculation, please

More information, less speculation, please
02-15-2010, 03:41 AM   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
More information, less speculation, please
See, that's the thing that amazes me the most: three weeks to go before the announcement, one week before PMA and Hoya/Pentax are' absolutely leak proof!

No info, no pictures, not even a Chinese brochure nor a "blurry cam" teaser... nothing.

They're getting really good at keeping their info inside.

And I don't know if I should put a or a emoticon...
02-15-2010, 03:46 AM   #164
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Info update from Pentax Japan

I received the following info update from Pentax Japan.

According to it:
  • New information released Monday 2010, February 16 at 10:00 at http://www.camera-pentax.jp/new/news01/
    (I know, February 16 is Tuesday, tell it Pentax).
  • Sensor size:
    - Possibility 1: 41 x 61 mm (if 3:2) or 44 x 59 mm (if 4:3).
    - Possibility 2: 31 x 47 mm (if 3:2) or 34 x 45 mm (if 4:3).
    (Possibility 1 is for 1.7x 35mm crop factor, possibility 2 is for 1.7x 35mm surface area; possibility 2 is only minimally larger than Leica S2 (30x45) which has a surface of for 1.6x 35mm -- but 1.6 is not 1.7 => the 645D and S2 sensors are different)
  • 100 MB image file size (sensor resolution overwhelmingly large).
The original info is here:
QuoteQuote:
☆Pentax+ news ☆*========*=========*========*
 【2010.2.15 新製品予告 VOL.1】
        35ミリフルサイズ比約1.7倍の撮像素子を採用!
*========*=========*========* ƒfƒWƒ^ƒ‹ˆŠƒŒƒtƒJƒƒ‰FPENTAX V•i—\ƒTƒCƒg

  いつもご利用いただきまして誠にありがとうございます。新製品予告サイトの
  新製品情報専用メールマガジンにご登録いただきましたお客様へのペンタック
  スプラスニュース予告サイト版です。

★彡━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━
┃1.新製品予告情報 
┗━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━☆彡
  今度の新製品では、35ミリフルサイズ比約1.7倍の撮像素子を採用。
  1枚あたりのデータ量が100MB余りにもなる画像からは、一目見ただけで
  大型センサーならではの圧倒的な解像感をご理解いただけると思います。

★彡━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━
┃2.新製品予告サイト更新のおしらせ
┗━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━☆彡
  新製品情報ページは2010年2月16日午前10時に更新しますので、
  下記にURLにアクセスしてください。
  PC版 http://www.camera-pentax.jp/new/news01/
  モバイル版 http://www.camera-pentax.jp/new/m/news01/

  ※ケータイ版のコンテンツは、QVGAサイズ(240320pix)以上のディスプレ
  イを持つi-modo、Ezweb、SoftBank対応の携帯電話向けコンテンツです。
  なお、一部の機種については正常に表示されない場合もありますのであらかじめ
  ご了承ください。また、対応外の機種につきましてもご覧いただけますが、表示
  が乱れる場合もありますのであらかじめご了承ください。

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The Google translation is here:

QuoteQuote:
☆ Pentax + news ☆ *========*=========*========*
2010.2.15 New Product VOL.1 [notice]
Hi employ approximately 35 full-sized image sensor of 1.7 mm twice!
*========*=========*========* Http://www.camera-pentax.jp/new/

Many thanks for your time. New site notice
Thank you tuck into a pen register mail magazine dedicated to New Products
Supurasunyusu notice site version.

★ 彡 ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━
┃ 1. Product warning information
┗ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ☆ 彡
Now a new product, compared to approximately 35 mm full size image sensor employs a 1.7-fold.
100MB of data per one single image will be too, at first glance
I think you understand your unique sense of sensor resolution overwhelmingly large.

★ 彡 ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━
┃ 2. This site Oshirase notice of new products
┗ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ━ ☆ 彡
New Products Page 2010 Monday, February 16 to update it at 10,
Please visit the URL below.
PC version http://www.camera-pentax.jp/new/news01/
Http://www.camera-pentax.jp/new/m/news01/ Mobile Edition

※ Mobile version content, QVGA size (240 320pix) or pre Discover
India with i-modo, Ezweb, SoftBank is enabled content for mobile phones.
However, for some models in advance, so you may not display correctly
Please note. The model is also available For outside support, see
Please note it may be distorted.

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* Cancel the mail delivery, such as e-mail address changes, the menu of services
ー screen page, so we can change what is registered,
Please use there. Information can also see here.
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☆ ★ ☆ * ... * ... * ... * ... * ... * ... * ... * ... * ... * ... * ... * ... * ... * ... * ... * ... * ... * ... * ... * ... * ... * ★ ☆ ★

─ ┌ ─ ─ ┐ Suggestion on this newsletter and is of interest here.
─ │ \ / │ e-mail address: info.pentaxplus @ pc.hoya.co.jp
Issued ─ └ ─ ─ ┘: HOYA Corporation PENTAX Imaging Systems Division

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Copyright (C) 2010 HOYA Corporation. All rights reserved.
Strictly forbidden without information on the images.

Last edited by falconeye; 02-15-2010 at 03:59 AM.
02-15-2010, 04:37 AM   #165
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I think 4:3 format.
And
- Possibility 2: 34 x 45 mm (4:3).

Hasselblad H3DII-50
File Size
RAW: Up to 65MB
TIFF: Up to 150MB

Hasselblad H3DII-39
RAW 50MB
TIFF 117MB




- Possibility 1: 41 x 61 mm (if 3:2) or 44 x 59 mm (if 4:3).

645 film size 41.5 x 56 mm. I doubt in such sensor size as "Possibility 1". It's bigger than 645 film.

Last edited by ogl; 02-15-2010 at 06:07 AM.
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