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03-09-2010, 12:50 AM   #406
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Ultra-wide, wide and standart lenses.

03-09-2010, 01:41 AM   #407
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
All I hope is that it bankrupts Leica.

That would be awesome.
No, that would be sad, IMHO. And I think Pentax releasing a camera in the same class (MF cameras that are more like standard DSLRs) as Leica, but in a different price class, will benefit both of them. The open question is - will Nikon join the party soon?
03-09-2010, 02:04 AM   #408
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
No, that would be sad, IMHO. And I think Pentax releasing a camera in the same class (MF cameras that are more like standard DSLRs) as Leica, but in a different price class, will benefit both of them. The open question is - will Nikon join the party soon?
No. Nikon's top managger said at PMA2010 that it was silly speculations in the net.
03-09-2010, 02:58 AM   #409
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Why such crappy ISO?

The Leica S2 goes up to just 1250 ISO. The Mamiya DM40 only goes to ISO 800. Why such low-ISO headroom?

Surely that restricts these [ridiculously expensive] beasts just to the studio?

Oh, and what is the ISO range for the Pentax 645D expected to be?

03-09-2010, 03:33 AM   #410
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
The Leica S2 goes up to just 1250 ISO. The Mamiya DM40 only goes to ISO 800. Why such low-ISO headroom?

Surely that restricts these [ridiculously expensive] beasts just to the studio?

Oh, and what is the ISO range for the Pentax 645D expected to be?
Certainly not. The fact is that to crank up iso, the sensor needs to have a build in variable analogue amplifier before teh analogue to digital convertion (the lower the amplifier, the lower the iso)

Medium format is not made for dim ligth, but it is used in daylight and / or on tripod. In addition the hudge dynamic of the sensor allows for a significant underexposure allowing simulation of higher isos.

Anyway a Medium Format camera is not a reporter tool, so this is not really a drawback for those who want to use it.
03-09-2010, 03:47 AM   #411
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
The Leica S2 goes up to just 1250 ISO. The Mamiya DM40 only goes to ISO 800. Why such low-ISO headroom?

Surely that restricts these [ridiculously expensive] beasts just to the studio?
IMHO, the "low ISO headroom" leads to confusion and nothing else.

In reality, these "studio" cameras beat every high ISO monster you can come up with. In both noise and dynamic range.

Compare the best of league for MF, FF and APS-C (Phase One P65+, Nikon D3x, Nikon D5000/Pentax K-x) on DxO (click onto "SNR 18%", and then "Print" in the upper left corner of the chart).

You'll see that what is called ISO 800 on the MF is more like and performs like ISO 400.
You'll see that the MF camera stops at ISO 800 and uses an "extended" setting for ISO 1600 and 3200 where 4 pixels are binned into 1 pixel (Phase One's Sensor+ patent).
You'll see that the Sensor+ patent has no positive effect as is does nothing else as you would do when downsampling to 50% size in postprocessing.
You'll see that push-processing the MF camera to true ISO 6400 (underexpose 2 stops and pushprocess 2 stops) yields the same low light performance as the best FF in its class and considerably better than APS-C can do.
You'll see that the full theoretical advantage of (uncropped) MF over FF (which is 1.4 stops or 4.2 dB) is not delivered. But a fraction of it is.


To summarize: MF cameras have equal or better low light capabilities than Full Frame and better than APS-C. But MF cameras are build to render high pixel count resolutions. This advantage goes away with high ISO settings which is why MF shooters don't typically care about high ISO. So, the ISO stops where it can still beat FF in terms of effective resolution.

Last edited by falconeye; 03-09-2010 at 03:55 AM.
03-09-2010, 03:48 AM   #412
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full specs embargo: 10th of March 02AM CET time
03-09-2010, 03:50 AM   #413
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Pentax just mailed this out (Google translation):

"... The new product is 44 33mm size CCD sensors. 35 mm format is to provide a description in a different world PENTAX 645D..."

So we can be 100% sure it's the Kodak KAF-40000 sensor. Not sure why the "35mm format" is mentioned above...

03-09-2010, 04:10 AM   #414
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Pentax just mailed this out (Google translation):

"... The new product is 44 33mm size CCD sensors. 35 mm format is to provide a description in a different world PENTAX 645D..."

So we can be 100% sure it's the Kodak KAF-40000 sensor. Not sure why the "35mm format" is mentioned above...
44*33 is DALSA sensor
45.7*35.4 is KODAK sensor...


Where is the truth?
03-09-2010, 04:16 AM   #415
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
44*33 is DALSA sensor
45.7*35.4 is KODAK sensor...


Where is the truth?
From the Hasselblad H4D-40 site (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/h-system/h4d-40.aspx):

Camera Type:
Large sensor medium format DSLR

Sensor size:
KAF-40000. 40.0 Mpixels (7304 x 5478 pixels)

Sensor dimensions:
33.144.2 mm

Yes, where's the truth?
03-09-2010, 04:37 AM   #416
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
full specs embargo: 10th of March 02AM CET time
No, it is 10th of March 10:00 Tokyo time which is 11th of March 2:00 CET and it only is when the Vol.5 news update (as quoted below) will go online.
QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Pentax just mailed this out (Google translation):
"... The new product is 44 33mm size CCD sensors. 35 mm format is to provide a description in a different world PENTAX 645D..."
Yeah, I received the same. Maybe, we get a Vol.6 tommorrow? Full text of Vol.5:
QuoteQuote:
New VOL.5 [notice] 2010.3.9
44 33mm size CCD sensor used in PENTAX 645D
The new product is equipped with 44 33mm size CCD sensor.
35 mm format and is described in a different world to achieve PENTAX 645D.
QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
44*33 is DALSA sensor
45.7*35.4 is KODAK sensor...
Yeah, the size points to the DALSA chip now. If not H4D-40 would quote the same size for the KAF-40000 which differs from Kodak's own spec. Strange. Soon we'll know...
03-09-2010, 04:52 AM   #417
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
...
To summarize: MF cameras have equal or better low light capabilities than Full Frame and better than APS-C. But MF cameras are build to render high pixel count resolutions. This advantage goes away with high ISO settings which is why MF shooters don't typically care about high ISO. So, the ISO stops where it can still beat FF in terms of effective resolution.
In other words ..., FF users like 5D2 people who work under day and night ambient light conditions with 20MB+ sensors will probably have little to fear from the current crop of 40 MB shooters like the 645D (or S2 or Mamiya). These MF bodies can deliver resolution - eg for landscapes - but they can't deliver much real world photographic usability - eg for photo-journalists or sports photogs
03-09-2010, 04:52 AM   #418
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
No, it is 10th of March 10:00 Tokyo time which is 11th of March 2:00 CET and it only is when the Vol.5 news update (as quoted below) will go online.
Er... 10th of March 10:00 Tokyo time is 10th of March 2:00 CET...
03-09-2010, 05:08 AM   #419
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
In other words ..., FF users like 5D2 people who work under day and night ambient light conditions with 20MB+ sensors will probably have little to fear from the current crop of 40 MB shooters like the 645D (or S2 or Mamiya). These MF bodies can deliver resolution - eg for landscapes - but they can't deliver much real world photographic usability - eg for photo-journalists or sports photogs
Why do you constrain "real world photographic usability" to photojournalism and sports photography? And travel photojournalists use cameras like the Pentax 67 and 645 (see e.g. OK1000 Pentax Blog: Experiencing the Pentax 67: An interview with photographer Chris Willson).

AND: If the 645D gets high ISO comparable to that Phase One, we're going to see ISO 1600 equivalent to the ISO 1600 of the 5dMkII (assuming DxO SNR analysis), so while it will shine at low ISO, it will still be just as good at ISO 1600.
03-09-2010, 05:12 AM   #420
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
From the Hasselblad H4D-40 site (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/h-system/h4d-40.aspx):

Camera Type:
Large sensor medium format DSLR

Sensor size:
KAF-40000. 40.0 Mpixels (7304 x 5478 pixels)

Sensor dimensions:
33.1—44.2 mm

Yes, where's the truth?
There are quite a few oddities in the description of the KAF-40000 sensor:
  • 45.76mm (H) x 35.34mm (V) doesn't correspond to 54.78mm (diagonal); corresponding diagonal is 57.82mm
  • 45.76 35.34 = 1.29, not 1.33
  • the 4/3 format corresponding to a 54.78mm diagonal is 32.9 x 43.8, not 33.1 x 44.2

Last edited by Mistral75; 03-09-2010 at 05:20 AM.
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