645D is here ...

**Rorschach** · 03-09-2010, 05:16 AM

Originally posted by rawr

In other words

..., FF users like 5D2 people who work under day and night ambient light conditions with 20MB+ sensors will probably have little to fear from the current crop of 40 MB shooters like the 645D (or S2 or Mamiya). These MF bodies can deliver resolution - eg for landscapes - but they can't deliver much real world photographic usability - eg for photo-journalists or sports photogs

'real world photographic usability'...excuse me? Have you never heard of nature / landscape / macro photography as a living? The 645D likely will be a wonderfull tool for those people, especially with the (sure to arrive) sealed lenses. I can't afford a new 645D no matter the price tag, but that doesn't stop me from seeing the potential.

falconeye · 03-09-2010, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by Mistral75

Er... 10th of March 10:00 Tokyo time is 10th of March 2:00 CET...

You're right, of course.
Must have been because there was a night between them and us

falconeye · 03-09-2010, 05:39 AM

Originally posted by Mistral75

There are quite a few oddities in the description of the KAF-40000 sensor

I noticed the diagonal discrepancy. Thanks for sorting out the other mismatches. Unfortunately, even the long document doesn't include a drawing with the various exact measures.

kenyee · 03-09-2010, 05:48 AM

Originally posted by rawr

can't deliver much real world photographic usability - eg for photo-journalists or sports photogs

I'm puzzled by this as well. When has MF ever been used for sports, even in the film era?
The FF sized DSLRs were always faster and sports = frame rate + shutter speed...

Photojournalists and sports shooters want long range lenses as well and MF isn't known for long range lenses...

MF has always been for studio/advertising/landscape work...

lithos · 03-09-2010, 06:06 AM

Originally posted by gazonk

No, that would be sad, IMHO.

I think it'd be pretty funny. Maybe this time, instead of Hermes, Calvin Klein can bail Leica out!

Think about it! The Leica M9 Underpants Edition!

Mistral75 · 03-09-2010, 06:12 AM

Originally posted by kenyee

I'm puzzled by this as well. When has MF ever been used for sports, even in the film era?
The FF sized DSLRs were always faster and sports = frame rate + shutter speed...

Photojournalists and sports shooters want long range lenses as well and MF isn't known for long range lenses...

MF has always been for studio/advertising/landscape work...

Don't be so affirmative. Just an anecdote: in the late seventies in Nice (France), when my father brought a '65 Hasselblad to the local photo shop to get roll films and some advice, the 40-something manager almost cried. It was the exact model he used when he was younger and covered such events as bicycle races (he was very short and thin and played the "monkey" on the motorbike following the competitors) or the Cannes film festival (the body being held upside-down, arms stretched high in the air).

falconeye · 03-09-2010, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

I noticed the diagonal discrepancy.

I finally managed to sort the discrepancies out of the Kodak document.

Here are the data as they appear to be correct. The document is using wrong labels.

1. Pixel pitch: 6.000 µm (turns out to be an exact figure !)
2. Image diagonal of active region: 54.78 mm (as given correctly)
3. Aspect ratio of active region: 7304:5478 or 4:3 (exact)
4. Size of active region: 43.82 x 32.87 mm (or 44x33 when rounded, matching both H4D-40 and DALSA DM40; 1.667x the surface of FF).
5. Size of area filled with pixels: 44.41 x 33.40 mm
6. Size of mechanical cover cutout: 45.76 x 35.34 mm (cf. page 33 of the long specification, incorrectly labelled "size of active region")

The data given in the Hasselblad document (44.2 mm rather than 43.8 mm) is compatible with assuming a different counting of dark and buffer pixels.

To summarize: both, Kodak KAF-40000 and DALSA DM40 match the Pentax specification (1.7x FF surface, 44x33mm, 40MP). Personally, I believe that Kodak is the more likely partner then.

Last edited by falconeye; 03-09-2010 at 06:24 AM.

ghelary · 03-09-2010, 06:31 AM

Originally posted by kenyee

I'm puzzled by this as well. When has MF ever been used for sports, even in the film era?
The FF sized DSLRs were always faster and sports = frame rate + shutter speed...

Photojournalists and sports shooters want long range lenses as well and MF isn't known for long range lenses...

MF has always been for studio/advertising/landscape work...

And you can add to it, aerial and architectural photography. Disciplines that were using large format and have moved either to full frame or medium format.

We can just have a look at the Luminous Landscape site where it's full of very specific usages for a very high definition.

The digital revolution gave the false idea that APSC/FF DSLR was the "one size fit all" of photography. Now with the "expert" compact cameras (Panasonic LX3, Canon S90, G11, Sigma DP2, Ricoh...) the "EVF" cameras (Micro 4/3, Samsung NX) the rangefinders (Leica) etc... we are finding back a welcomed diversity.

thibs · 03-09-2010, 06:37 AM

Thanks for sorting this out Falk.
I agree Kodak is more probable than Dalsa.

What I hope is the following: Mamiya/Phase One (and as such, Dalsa) have been very busy coming out rather quickly (I mean this is Medium Format) new sensors (different crops or more Mpix) out.

Kodak/Pentax would better be able to follow. I mean, if no successor in a year or 16 months from now, they'd be lost IMHO.

Samsungian · 03-09-2010, 06:42 AM

Aerial Imaging has evolved.

Behold the Million Dollar Zeiss DMC

in PDF, takes a few seconds to load...

http://www.ifp.uni-stuttgart.de/publications/phowo01/Hinz.pdf

pcarfan · 03-09-2010, 06:50 AM

Will they announce when it will hit the shelves when they announce the camera ?, anyone think I'll be able to rent one in July for a trip to Yellowstone?

P.S: I assume no one would know these, but didn't read through the whole thread, so thought I'll just put it out there and see...thanks.

Mistral75 · 03-09-2010, 07:00 AM

Originally posted by pcarfan

Will they announce when it will hit the shelves when they announce the camera ?, anyone think I'll be able to rent one in July for a trip to Yellowstone?

Considering the teasing being in Japanese only, I presume the initial launch will be limited to Japan and the coverage then extended to North America, Europe and more according to the success of the Japanese launch.

This is a professional device and Pentax has to build a network dedicated to professionals with the services such people expect.

So I am afraid you would need to rent your 645D in Japan for your trip to Yellowstone.

ogl · 03-09-2010, 07:34 AM

Hope we will get specs tomorrow.

Asahiflex · 03-09-2010, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by ogl

Hope we will get specs tomorrow.

According to our local distributor, the embargo is lifted tomorrow.

lithos · 03-09-2010, 08:15 AM

Nine AM it is, then.

03-09-2010, 06:18 AM	#427
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Kodak KAF-40000 correct figures Originally posted by falconeye I noticed the diagonal discrepancy. I finally managed to sort the discrepancies out of the Kodak document. Here are the data as they appear to be correct. The document is using wrong labels. 1. Pixel pitch: 6.000 µm (turns out to be an exact figure !) 2. Image diagonal of active region: 54.78 mm (as given correctly) 3. Aspect ratio of active region: 7304:5478 or 4:3 (exact) 4. Size of active region: 43.82 x 32.87 mm (or 44x33 when rounded, matching both H4D-40 and DALSA DM40; 1.667x the surface of FF). 5. Size of area filled with pixels: 44.41 x 33.40 mm 6. Size of mechanical cover cutout: 45.76 x 35.34 mm (cf. page 33 of the long specification, incorrectly labelled "size of active region") The data given in the Hasselblad document (44.2 mm rather than 43.8 mm) is compatible with assuming a different counting of dark and buffer pixels. To summarize: both, Kodak KAF-40000 and DALSA DM40 match the Pentax specification (1.7x FF surface, 44x33mm, 40MP). Personally, I believe that Kodak is the more likely partner then. Last edited by falconeye; 03-09-2010 at 06:24 AM.

03-09-2010, 06:42 AM	#430
Samsungian Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Colorado USA Posts: 1,337	Aerial Imaging has evolved. Behold the Million Dollar Zeiss DMC Aerial Imaging has evolved. Behold the Million Dollar Zeiss DMC in PDF, takes a few seconds to load... http://www.ifp.uni-stuttgart.de/publications/phowo01/Hinz.pdf

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03-09-2010, 05:16 AM	#421
Rorschach Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Kuusamo, Finland Photos: Gallery Posts: 652	Originally posted by rawr In other words ..., FF users like 5D2 people who work under day and night ambient light conditions with 20MB+ sensors will probably have little to fear from the current crop of 40 MB shooters like the 645D (or S2 or Mamiya). These MF bodies can deliver resolution - eg for landscapes - but they can't deliver much real world photographic usability - eg for photo-journalists or sports photogs 'real world photographic usability'...excuse me? Have you never heard of nature / landscape / macro photography as a living? The 645D likely will be a wonderfull tool for those people, especially with the (sure to arrive) sealed lenses. I can't afford a new 645D no matter the price tag, but that doesn't stop me from seeing the potential.

03-09-2010, 05:35 AM	#422
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by Mistral75 Er... 10th of March 10:00 Tokyo time is 10th of March 2:00 CET... You're right, of course. Must have been because there was a night between them and us

03-09-2010, 05:39 AM	#423
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by Mistral75 There are quite a few oddities in the description of the KAF-40000 sensor I noticed the diagonal discrepancy. Thanks for sorting out the other mismatches. Unfortunately, even the long document doesn't include a drawing with the various exact measures.

03-09-2010, 05:48 AM	#424
kenyee Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Boston, PRofMA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,026	Originally posted by rawr can't deliver much real world photographic usability - eg for photo-journalists or sports photogs I'm puzzled by this as well. When has MF ever been used for sports, even in the film era? The FF sized DSLRs were always faster and sports = frame rate + shutter speed... Photojournalists and sports shooters want long range lenses as well and MF isn't known for long range lenses... MF has always been for studio/advertising/landscape work...

03-09-2010, 06:06 AM	#425
lithos Inactive Account Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUS Posts: 3,261	Originally posted by gazonk No, that would be sad, IMHO. I think it'd be pretty funny. Maybe this time, instead of Hermes, Calvin Klein can bail Leica out! Think about it! The Leica M9 Underpants Edition!

03-09-2010, 06:12 AM	#426
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	Originally posted by kenyee I'm puzzled by this as well. When has MF ever been used for sports, even in the film era? The FF sized DSLRs were always faster and sports = frame rate + shutter speed... Photojournalists and sports shooters want long range lenses as well and MF isn't known for long range lenses... MF has always been for studio/advertising/landscape work... Don't be so affirmative. Just an anecdote: in the late seventies in Nice (France), when my father brought a '65 Hasselblad to the local photo shop to get roll films and some advice, the 40-something manager almost cried. It was the exact model he used when he was younger and covered such events as bicycle races (he was very short and thin and played the "monkey" on the motorbike following the competitors) or the Cannes film festival (the body being held upside-down, arms stretched high in the air).

03-09-2010, 06:31 AM	#428
ghelary Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Paris, France Photos: Gallery Posts: 613	Originally posted by kenyee I'm puzzled by this as well. When has MF ever been used for sports, even in the film era? The FF sized DSLRs were always faster and sports = frame rate + shutter speed... Photojournalists and sports shooters want long range lenses as well and MF isn't known for long range lenses... MF has always been for studio/advertising/landscape work... And you can add to it, aerial and architectural photography. Disciplines that were using large format and have moved either to full frame or medium format. We can just have a look at the Luminous Landscape site where it's full of very specific usages for a very high definition. The digital revolution gave the false idea that APSC/FF DSLR was the "one size fit all" of photography. Now with the "expert" compact cameras (Panasonic LX3, Canon S90, G11, Sigma DP2, Ricoh...) the "EVF" cameras (Micro 4/3, Samsung NX) the rangefinders (Leica) etc... we are finding back a welcomed diversity.

03-09-2010, 06:37 AM	#429
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Thanks for sorting this out Falk. I agree Kodak is more probable than Dalsa. What I hope is the following: Mamiya/Phase One (and as such, Dalsa) have been very busy coming out rather quickly (I mean this is Medium Format) new sensors (different crops or more Mpix) out. Kodak/Pentax would better be able to follow. I mean, if no successor in a year or 16 months from now, they'd be lost IMHO.

03-09-2010, 06:50 AM	#431
pcarfan Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Dayton, Ohio Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,978	Will they announce when it will hit the shelves when they announce the camera ?, anyone think I'll be able to rent one in July for a trip to Yellowstone? P.S: I assume no one would know these, but didn't read through the whole thread, so thought I'll just put it out there and see...thanks.

03-09-2010, 07:00 AM	#432
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	Originally posted by pcarfan Will they announce when it will hit the shelves when they announce the camera ?, anyone think I'll be able to rent one in July for a trip to Yellowstone? Considering the teasing being in Japanese only, I presume the initial launch will be limited to Japan and the coverage then extended to North America, Europe and more according to the success of the Japanese launch. This is a professional device and Pentax has to build a network dedicated to professionals with the services such people expect. So I am afraid you would need to rent your 645D in Japan for your trip to Yellowstone.

03-09-2010, 07:34 AM	#433
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Hope we will get specs tomorrow.

03-09-2010, 07:54 AM	#434
Asahiflex Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Netherlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,795	Originally posted by ogl Hope we will get specs tomorrow. According to our local distributor, the embargo is lifted tomorrow.

03-09-2010, 08:15 AM	#435
lithos Inactive Account Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUS Posts: 3,261	Nine AM it is, then.