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03-10-2010, 08:32 AM   #571
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QuoteOriginally posted by pcarfan Quote
Anyone know how the 50,000 actuation life span for the shutter compares to the leica?
Anyone?

(Ignoring ken Rockwell for now )

03-10-2010, 08:37 AM   #572
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Niche Markets: Pro vs Serious Amateur

I find it interesting that Pentax specifically says the 645D camera is not designed for the professional market, meaning studio pros for fashion and product. They point out the expense of pro-level support, like on-demand repairs, rentals and one-on-one sales negotiation.

Other big pro-markets include photojournalism and weddings. These niches are pretty much dominated by Nikon and Canon DSLRs which are optimized for sports and fast shooting.

Pentax identifies the 645D as a tool for landscape photography for serious amateurs and hobbyists. To this end they have produced a weather-resistant design (very cool!). If they aren't still using 4x5 film, a serious landscape photographer is probably looking at a high-res FF DSLR. In the 645D price range, that would be Canon, Nikon D3x, Sony 850/900, Leica M9 (without AA filter!).

My Nikon D90 is 12M pixels, which prints 9.5x12 inches at 300 dpi, and easily goes 50% larger with excellent quality. Those previously mentioned FF DSLRs have something like 24M pixels which is 13x18 inches. This Kodak sensor is 40M which is 18x24 inches at 300 dpi.

My printshop does great, very inexpensive images up to 12x18 inches on the Frontier laser printer. To go larger than that, I need to order prints from the Lightjet which goes to 50 inches wide. (Wow! but they are rather more expensive.)

The 645D question is, "Who prints larger than 12x18"?

Maybe the answer comes from Michael Reichmann, who claims that 645 digital essentially replaces 4x5 film.
03-10-2010, 08:53 AM   #573
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QuoteOriginally posted by pcarfan Quote
Anyone?

(Ignoring ken Rockwell for now )
50 000 is enough. IMO.
03-10-2010, 08:59 AM   #574
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This is what I mean about useful exchange of criticism

QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
The 645D article really is ludicrous, though. Put it in manual with the front dial set to shutter and back dial set to aperture, put the metering at spot or center-weight, set AF to singlepoint center, and he could shoot it just like an old 645N. The only menus he'd need are the jpeg parameter menus, and he'd likely cream himself when he discovered the incredible range of jpeg controls Pentax allows (since he's an avowed jpeg shooter).
Ken R complained about complicated menus systems, and I agreed with him on this point and said that I loved the manual dials on the 645N because they are wonderfully simple and user-friendly.

er1kksen helpfully points out that the 645D appears to retain similar manual knobs, which makes me excited (although I do notice a whole lotta buttons and knobs in the camera images).

So, again, I'm not offended by strong opinions or equipment rants from Ken, er1kksen, or anyone else on this forum as they help highlight what may be most important to me as a user. I get much less useful information from purely factual reviews because each detail is presented as important as any other detail.

I don't get any useful information from ad hominem attacks on someone's personality.

Again, I bet that Ken ends up enthusiastic about the 645D.

03-10-2010, 09:07 AM   #575
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QuoteOriginally posted by MetaD Quote
I find it interesting that Pentax specifically says the 645D camera is not designed for the professional market, meaning studio pros for fashion and product. They point out the expense of pro-level support, like on-demand repairs, rentals and one-on-one sales negotiation.

Other big pro-markets include photojournalism and weddings. These niches are pretty much dominated by Nikon and Canon DSLRs which are optimized for sports and fast shooting.

Pentax identifies the 645D as a tool for landscape photography for serious amateurs and hobbyists.

Pentax didn't said anything about "not being for professional" in their press release. Why do you make such affirmations ?

In the press release Hoya only said :

It combines exceptional image quality with excellent maneuverability and outstanding reliability to simplify professional-level outdoor shooting

It would be stupid not to think this camera as professional. This camera will probably be better than a lot of professional MF cameras out there (not to mention all the FF-s), even if the marketing department doesn't write the "the camera is for professionals" in each paragraph of the press release as you wanted.
03-10-2010, 09:12 AM   #576
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I did a quick search to compare the price of the new Pentax 645D to other peers in a similar league. Thus I found a recent comparison of medium format cameras, posted by The Luminous Landscape. Then I payed special attention to their "Pricing" paragraph. Based on that information, and also after visiting some online photography stores, here you have a quick price comparison:

Hasselblad H4D (60 Mp): $ 42,000
PhaseOne DF + P65+ back (60 Mp) + 80 mm lens: $ 42,000
Leica S-2 (37.5 Mp) + 35 mm lens: $ 28,300
Pentax 645D (40 Mp) + 55 mm lens: $ 10,500

Of course this is a very rough comparison, and the respective qualities of each model are quite different. But going to the core reason to jump onto medium format (i.e., huge increase in resolution compared to full format), it is rather clear that the 645D is starting its career at a very advantageous position. To oversimplify things, you can buy four 645D for the price of one Hasselblad H4D or one PhaseOne DF, or three 645D for the price of a Leica S-2.

My budget will never reach those levels, but if I seriously considered that range of products, I think the conclusion is quite clear.

Last edited by cateto; 03-10-2010 at 09:38 AM.
03-10-2010, 09:20 AM   #577
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QuoteOriginally posted by raz Quote
Pentax didn't said anything about "not being for professional" in their press release. Why do you make such affirmations ?
I'm too rushed to go find it now, but it was either in the long press release at dpreview or in the google translation of this japanese review of the release.

The specific point was that Pentax wasn't directed at the Professional (Studio, I presume) market because of the expense of pro-level service. It was a direct quote from the press release or from a question at the press conference.

Pro means PROFESSIONAL. I like good equipment and to take the best photos I can, but a real pro, with $10,000 modeling gigs can easily afford the "top" brands. In fact, that kind of photographer probably needs to sling a PhaseOne over their shoulder just to be taken seriously.
03-10-2010, 09:26 AM   #578
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S2 - 37.5 MP

03-10-2010, 09:35 AM   #579
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QuoteOriginally posted by MetaD Quote
I'm too rushed to go find it now, but it was either in the long press release at dpreview or in the google translation of this japanese review of the release.

The specific point was that Pentax wasn't directed at the Professional (Studio, I presume) market because of the expense of pro-level service. It was a direct quote from the press release or from a question at the press conference.

Pro means PROFESSIONAL. I like good equipment and to take the best photos I can, but a real pro, with $10,000 modeling gigs can easily afford the "top" brands. In fact, that kind of photographer probably needs to sling a PhaseOne over their shoulder just to be taken seriously.
I wonder where you are taking those statements from. Pros usually rent their MF equipments (especially in fashion and advertisement) But if you have the budget to choose between a D3X and a 645D, what would you do ?

In correlation, if you have the budget for a Leica S2, you'll more likely have the budget for 2 Pentax 645.

In any case, you win. I'll wait for the reaction of the few pros that are going on this forum (i'm thinking of Bejikan among other) But Pentax used to have an excellent reputation for their MF systems in the "pro" world.

Now regarding the "pro" support program, this may be the real reason behind the commercialisation in Japan only first. Basically to support the whole country you would need only 2 centers, one in Tokyo and one in Osaka to cover the whole country and those centers would be close physically and culturally to the development engineers.

Next steps would be Paris and New York which are the 2 hearts of professionnal photography (as a practice, I m not talking about equipment makers here)
03-10-2010, 09:37 AM   #580
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
S2 - 37.5 MP
Ok, I will correct (although I rounded to 40 to make comparison easier).
03-10-2010, 09:41 AM   #581
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it seems to me, this sensor from Kodak is made especially for 645D.

base ISO 200-1000.

Hasselblad H4D-40 has ISO100, 200, 400, 800 and 1600.
03-10-2010, 09:46 AM   #582
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After the release of 645D. How many Pentax SLR will be release this year?
03-10-2010, 09:47 AM   #583
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I suppose I should mention that I will be at CP+ tomorrow in Yokohama, and I'm pretty sure there will be a 645D model on demo there. I hope they will let us plebes grub it up with some hands on....

Any questions I should answer on the trip? I know next to nothing about MF but hey, a new pentax is a new pentax! I wonder if the wife will let me spend half the savings...?
03-10-2010, 10:14 AM   #584
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The 39 Meg back for the Hasselblad V system cameras is also comparitively affordable. If the 645D lives up to its specs I think it will pave the way for Pentax to introduce a full frame DSLR and be more successful in the entire market not just to Pentax loyalists. On another forum, where many of the readers do own or use the above mentioned MF digital systems they seem to believe that Pentax will be a game changer as it offers some features that the other manufacturers do not. And just becuase a professional can buy a more expensive MF camera in order to do business does not mean that they are wealthy or have money to burn or even that they want to impress others. Cameras are tools used to earn money and the less spent on equipment that does the job that is required for the client means more money for other equipment, advertising, training or plain old profit to paint the house or buy the kids or spouse something they need or want.
03-10-2010, 10:16 AM   #585
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Cool ! I'm curious to know if 645D is on Demo, or underglass ?

Cool ! I'm curious to know if 645D is on Demo, or underglass ?

Should be great fun for you !!!


QuoteOriginally posted by JesseDavis Quote
I suppose I should mention that I will be at CP+ tomorrow in Yokohama, and I'm pretty sure there will be a 645D model on demo there. I hope they will let us plebes grub it up with some hands on....

Any questions I should answer on the trip? I know next to nothing about MF but hey, a new pentax is a new pentax! I wonder if the wife will let me spend half the savings...?
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