Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
03-14-2010, 04:26 AM   #676
Pentaxian
er1kksen's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Forestville, NY
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,683
QuoteOriginally posted by Steve Beswick Quote
Scanners are really cheap now, and anybody can successfully develop their own B&W film.
What if you like to shoot in color? It takes a considerable level of darkroom skill to achieve anywhere near the control and precision that can be achieved in the processing of a RAW file, and still nowhere near the flexibility.

QuoteQuote:
More importantly, in one paragraph you have summed up everything that is wrong with the current photography ecosystem, form manufacturer to photographer. Back "in the old days" when everything was done with film and chemistry each shot cost something. Now you could argue the same is true with digital, and I would agree with you, but the per frame cost is not nearly as obvious as it used to be. The side effects of this are two fold:
1. There is a whole new generation of so-called art photographers who might as well just be using a video camera everywhere they go and then pulling stills out of the footage later.
2. In one word, digital breeds laziness. It is so easy to take a shot, decide it's crap, and delete it on the spot. Some of the time this is no big deal, but it can lead to missed opportunities, due to something moving, the light changing, etc. Also, what if you are out in the desert and the heat makes your light meter go crazy, or for that matter you have a K10d so your light meter isn't worth a damn to begin with? Just take fifty shots to get 2 or 3 you say? That doesn't sound very practical.
Oh god, not this argument again...

03-14-2010, 04:46 AM   #677
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 16,213
QuoteOriginally posted by Steve Beswick Quote
Scanners are really cheap now, and anybody can successfully develop their own B&W film.

More importantly, in one paragraph you have summed up everything that is wrong with the current photography ecosystem, form manufacturer to photographer. Back "in the old days" when everything was done with film and chemistry each shot cost something. Now you could argue the same is true with digital, and I would agree with you, but the per frame cost is not nearly as obvious as it used to be. The side effects of this are two fold:
1. There is a whole new generation of so-called art photographers who might as well just be using a video camera everywhere they go and then pulling stills out of the footage later.
2. In one word, digital breeds laziness. It is so easy to take a shot, decide it's crap, and delete it on the spot. Some of the time this is no big deal, but it can lead to missed opportunities, due to something moving, the light changing, etc. Also, what if you are out in the desert and the heat makes your light meter go crazy, or for that matter you have a K10d so your light meter isn't worth a damn to begin with? Just take fifty shots to get 2 or 3 you say? That doesn't sound very practical.

The other issue, and I know it's been said before but it bears repeating, is the upgrade issue. Back in the film days if you wanted to get better IQ with the lenses you have then you simply spent the few dollars extra on better film. Now you have to spend many hundreds of dollars on a new camera, and then you need a couple of weeks to get comfortable with it. What if you can't buy a camera with a better sensor that has feature "x" that you love? quite simply, you are screwed. Worse yet, what if people stop making newer, better cameras in your lens mount of choice? Your once top of the line lens collection will be next to worthless in a heartbeat. If you don't believe me just ask anybody with a FD mount collection.

Edit: There is a lot more I could say on the subject, but it's 4:01 AM, and I am going to bed.
I'm not certain if I touched a nerve or what. Digital photography for me is not about shooting lots and lots of frames. It does allow me to learn what works and doesn't in a way which the film experience did not. The issue for me is that the exif is not present with film and I never took notes while taking photos (maybe a should have). The end result is that I have a much better feel for what works and what doesn't in photography.

As to reviewing photos on the spot, I am not certain what is wrong with that. If it were an option with film to get a "preview" of what you are shooting, a clue as to how your exposures were turning out, do you mean to tell me you would not like that? The biggest thing is just to be certain that I didn't leave some setting from the night before that is going to totally screw up my photos.

As to laziness, it is difficult for me to understand this. It actually takes more work to take more photos and wade through them after the fact. For this reason, I personally try to limit my shots. Post processing takes just as long in photo shop as in a physical dark room. Film is not better than digital is just different. I understand it is difficult to see people entering photography without the skills that older photographers take for granted, but times do change, sometimes for the better and sometimes not.
03-14-2010, 05:27 AM   #678
Senior Member




Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Puerto Rico
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 115
In fact MF polaroid backs are used to do just that: preview the photo before taking the actual shot.
03-14-2010, 06:11 AM   #679
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Borås, Sweden
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,165
QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
What if you like to shoot in color? It takes a considerable level of darkroom skill to achieve anywhere near the control and precision that can be achieved in the processing of a RAW file, and still nowhere near the flexibility.



Oh god, not this argument again...
I think it's time for this century old quote again. Selectively bolded for mr Beswick. We should all go back to coating our own glass plates.

QuoteQuote:
The photographer, in the earlier days, at least, was a man who respected himself and his calling, the amateur was generally a man of some means, and this implies of education properly applied also. It is first the dry plate, then the great simplifying of the processes, the cheapening of the apparatus and finally the vast catastrophe of film that have popularised and wrecked photography, and by so doing have attracted to it hundreds and hundreds of men and youths whose sole mission appears to be to bring discredit on the ranks in which they have enrolled themselves.


03-14-2010, 08:48 AM   #680
ogl
Pentaxian
ogl's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Siberia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,239
QuoteOriginally posted by Steve Beswick Quote
Scanners are really cheap now, and anybody can successfully develop their own B&W film.
Good drum scanner is very expensive. Good film scanner (used) is not lower than 2000-3000 USD.
Nikon Super Coolscan 9000 ED (new) is $4000.
Nikon Super Coolscan 8000 ED (new) is $3000.

If you tell about flatbed scanner...It's rather amateur option.
03-14-2010, 09:01 AM   #681
Pentaxian
gazonk's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Oslo area, Norway
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,512
QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
I think it's time for this century old quote again. Selectively bolded for mr Beswick. We should all go back to coating our own glass plates.
Ah, the quote was new to me. Excellent
03-14-2010, 09:59 AM   #682
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Borås, Sweden
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,165
QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Ah, the quote was new to me. Excellent
I have the entire thing posted on another thread, it was something someone found scanning through 1901 issues of Amateur Photographer. People complaining about the "snapshooters" and how they're ruining the craft.
03-14-2010, 11:01 AM   #683
Senior Member
summonbaka's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Kagoshima, Japan
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 237
So, let's go back to the 645D.

QuoteOriginally posted by JesseDavis Quote
Well I just got out of CP+

generally as a show the whole deal looked a little 1.0

pentax was definitely the star. The crowd around their stage was 15 people deep and the wait to handle a 645 was about an hour with about six models out.

I gave up taking pics of all the guys with canikon around their neck waiting in line to see the 645

I didn't get toomuch time there but I did handle the new baby, so here are my impressions:

it's LIGHT, weight the same as my k10 with an M 50mm 1.4 mounted, or less.
Fits my hand so nice, but portrait snaps would be a pain.
Lenses start at a cool grand.
Did I mention it's light? A tadge bigger than a hasselblad, better looking, and MUCH lighter.
The thumb and finger wheels are much better than the k series cameras, and in better positions.
The viewfinder is massive, and quite bright with the 55mm 2.8 which was mounted. I felt sucked into the frame.
The AF was sublime, of course it was SDM so maybe I didn't know what I was missing before. Didn't seem any faster than usual though.
I noticed a lag from button press to capture time, as the dude I was shooting ended up moved from the frame.
The shutter has quite a thunk. A but quieter than my k10 but you can feel the camera move more in your hand.
This would fit nicely in my current, small bag.
Did I mention it was light? Great ergonomics in the shape too.

I took some shots but they refused to let me put an sd card in it.

I will post all my pics later when I get home. Also watched and photo'd a photogs presentation regarding using the 645. I got the guy to take a pic of me with the 645, and it was fun to watch him fail with a manual lens

all for now
Well, the CP+ is over now. I went today and had a go with the 645D and I can confirm what JesseDavis says. There were a lot of people looking at the camera but i had the luck that there was a line of around 10 minutes wait when i arrived so had a go at it.

I can say that even if it's light i can't say it's lighter than my k-m with a M 50/1.7. But I can say that for it's size the weight you would expect is nothing near to what it really is.
It's easy to hold and the main buttons are close to your fingers.
The mirror lock-up works nicely.
The two cards work -as expected- as jpeg/jpeg raw/raw and raw/jpeg. I'm not sure of the raw+/raw+ but i suppose it's also supported.
The menu is huge. As in previous pentax cameras its separated in sub-menus and there are 6 pages for controls. (Btw, forgot to check what languages it has supported)

Last but not least, some photos. I had some more, but i just realized that using a wide aperture will leave most detail off so the pictures are duds.

All of the following attached images are creative commons 3.0, non-derivatives, non-commercial. Please feel free to use them as long as you keep to this license (or PM me). I'll post higher quality editions later, i'm really tired.

Attached Images
         
03-14-2010, 11:02 AM   #684
Pentaxian
redrockcoulee's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Medicine Hat
Posts: 2,135
QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Good drum scanner is very expensive. Good film scanner (used) is not lower than 2000-3000 USD.
Nikon Super Coolscan 9000 ED (new) is $4000.
Nikon Super Coolscan 8000 ED (new) is $3000.

If you tell about flatbed scanner...It's rather amateur option.
I paid $575 used for my Coolscan 8000 and the closest camera store has a brand new 9000 for about $2200 Canadian. I have seen many used 8000 for around the 1100 dollar mark. Not cheap, but a lot less expensive than the price you quoted.

It may not make sense for most to go the film >scan> digital print route but lets be more realistic about scanner prices. If some one has years or decades of negatives it makes more sense than some one starting out strickly from digital. If some one shoots a great deal it may not be practical. If some one shoots mostly black and white and uses the traditional darkroom but does some of the work through the digital work flow it might be more practical to buy a scanner than to have it done commercial or perhaps paying for the odd drum scan is the best for that person.

I see no reason that shoe manufactures make any size other than 9 1/2 and if your feet are bigger or smaller you need to conform. That is basically the digital versus film arguement from either side: this is what I think is best so it must be the only way for everyone else. Last night I developed 5 rolls of film this morning I took about 30 shoots with the DRSLR on my walk. It is very clear to me that film is better than digital except when digital is better than film and both parts fo the statement are totally true, at least for me.

I know that medium format film scanned with the Nikon scanners far exceeds 12 megapixel DSLR full frame and expect the 645D to as well. For many MF film is still the better option but for others it will not and they probably would be better served by the 645D than the film route.
03-14-2010, 11:18 AM   #685
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Colorado USA
Posts: 1,337
Nice images, thank you !

Nice images, thank you !

I especially like the 44mmx33mm sensor compared to aps-c 1.5x sensor display.

Medium format sensor is indeed bigger than aps-c and the display proves it


QuoteOriginally posted by summonbaka Quote
So, let's go back to the 645D.



Well, the CP+ is over now. I went today and had a go with the 645D and I can confirm what JesseDavis says. There were a lot of people looking at the camera but i had the luck that there was a line of around 10 minutes wait when i arrived so had a go at it.

I can say that even if it's light i can't say it's lighter than my k-m with a M 50/1.7. But I can say that for it's size the weight you would expect is nothing near to what it really is.
It's easy to hold and the main buttons are close to your fingers.
The mirror lock-up works nicely.
The two cards work -as expected- as jpeg/jpeg raw/raw and raw/jpeg. I'm not sure of the raw+/raw+ but i suppose it's also supported.
The menu is huge. As in previous pentax cameras its separated in sub-menus and there are 6 pages for controls. (Btw, forgot to check what languages it has supported)

Last but not least, some photos. I had some more, but i just realized that using a wide aperture will leave most detail off so the pictures are duds.

All of the following attached images are creative commons 3.0, non-derivatives, non-commercial. Please feel free to use them as long as you keep to this license (or PM me). I'll post higher quality editions later, i'm really tired.
03-14-2010, 11:40 AM   #686
Senior Member
summonbaka's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Kagoshima, Japan
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 237
By the way, there are better pictures (and pictures that make me wanna erase mine) in this thread: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/93373-pentax-surprise-show.html

And something i forgot:
The horizontal tilt can be displayed in the main LCD, but it appears in the viewfinder and in the top LCD.
03-14-2010, 11:56 AM   #687
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Boston, PRofMA
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,053
Forgot to ask, does the AF point stay lit while you half-press the shutter? The quick flash of the AF point is one of the odd things I never understood about pentax dslrs, though it's probably most useful only in AF-C mode so that may explain it
03-14-2010, 01:01 PM   #688
Senior Member




Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: madison
Posts: 239
Amateur Photographers chastising snapshooters?
Somehow I can't quite wrap my brain around that concept.

QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
I have the entire thing posted on another thread, it was something someone found scanning through 1901 issues of Amateur Photographer. People complaining about the "snapshooters" and how they're ruining the craft.
03-14-2010, 01:25 PM   #689
Veteran Member




Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Coast , Sweden
Posts: 467
QuoteOriginally posted by summonbaka Quote
Last but not least, some photos. I had some more, but i just realized that using a wide aperture will leave most detail off so the pictures are duds.
Can anyone here from the cross section pictures tell if there is a ring motor or the usual micro motor?
03-14-2010, 04:31 PM   #690
Veteran Member
kevinschoenmakers's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Shanghai
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,513
QuoteOriginally posted by summonbaka Quote
Last but not least, some photos. I had some more, but i just realized that using a wide aperture will leave most detail off so the pictures are duds.
I wonder how the prism works, to me the shape doesn't look like it would bounce the light in the right direction at all...
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
pentax news, pentax rumors
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
645d!!! insulinguy Pentax News and Rumors 1 10-12-2010 07:36 AM
645D now available in the UK robbiec Pentax News and Rumors 3 09-21-2010 03:01 AM
Using the 645D... HawaiianOnline Pentax Medium Format 13 03-23-2010 07:17 PM
645D or something else? GordonZA Pentax News and Rumors 7 03-09-2010 02:24 PM
Who would consider a 645D? Elton Pentax Medium Format 11 09-28-2007 07:39 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:09 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top