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03-15-2010, 06:29 AM   #706
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Yes, much thicker as the image with K-7 shows & twice the weight of D700 & 5D.

The sensor plane distance between eos, nikon & k-mount are within a couple mm, so K-7 is good representation of how thin canon and nikon full frame dslrs are compared to 645D.


No biggie, I keep reading 645D is small, and thie image I linked for me makes it look big. Unless its front to back depth is not a concern ?



写真で見るペンタックス「645D」(β機) - デジカメWatch

The K7 is much smaller than the D700 and 5D so exprapollating is not very relevant IMO. The K7 have been lauded for playing the compact card among the "semi-pro" models.

Now the 645D is compact compared to Nikon D3x (just a bit heavier) and the exiting MF lineups.

But I bet, just like you can't understand how big a Pentax 6x7 is before holding one in you hand, you can't understand the respective difference between MF before holding them in hands.

03-15-2010, 07:28 AM   #707
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D3x is $7469, about $2,000 less & available now in USA today

D3x is $7469, about $2,000 less & available now in USA today

By the time 645D hits USA, Nikon D3x could be a few hundred less.

Well, if 645D hits USA market, I've yet to read anything official its coming here.


Nikon | D3x SLR Digital Camera (Camera Body) | 25442 | B&H Photo


If I had $7500 to spend on a D3x, why would I want to then spend another $2,000 on a 645D ? Heck I don't want to spend $2499 on a Canon 5D Mark II, my next logical choice and I am instead considering a Panasonic GH1 and lens for $1,189 to get me a milf, evil, ilc camera with HD video capture, and to have an insanely small camera for those times when I'd rather not carry any camera due to its size, bulk. If it weren't for all the appealing rumours and new Panasonic G2 specs due for inclusion in upcoming GH2 in of Fall 2010, I'd probably buy GH1 today. $1189 with its $850 lens included is something I have to think about spending. Sames goes for $2499 its something I have to really put more thought into spending. I like the videos I've seen of the new touchscreen controls implemented in G2, and the feature makes GH2 worth waiting for.

$1,000 here, $2,000 there on gear is affordable with reservations. $9400 is insane, whether its perceived to be a good deal or not. I'm not the target market for the Hassy, so $30,000 cameras were completely off my shopping radar.
$9400 for a camera is too much money for me to even remotely consider, that goes for D3x at $7469 too. $5,000 for one camera ? Ain't gonna happen, not for me


I'm glad alot of people here at pentaxforums can afford $9400 and will buy a 645D to chit chat about.
Thats great for Pentax & I hope your marriages survive the 645D camera purchase




QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
The K7 is much smaller than the D700 and 5D so exprapollating is not very relevant IMO. The K7 have been lauded for playing the compact card among the "semi-pro" models.

Now the 645D is compact compared to Nikon D3x (just a bit heavier) and the exiting MF lineups.

But I bet, just like you can't understand how big a Pentax 6x7 is before holding one in you hand, you can't understand the respective difference between MF before holding them in hands.

Last edited by Samsungian; 03-15-2010 at 07:33 AM.
03-15-2010, 07:39 AM   #708
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The prices in U.S.A. are the most attractive in the world. European prices are higher...
Russian prices are out of my mind.
03-15-2010, 07:42 AM   #709
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Yes, much thicker as the image with K-7 shows & about twice the weight of either D700 or 5D.

No biggie, I keep reading 645D is small, and thie image I linked for me makes it look big. Unless its front to back depth is not a concern ?
Looking at the cut-away photo http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/dcw/docs/354/026/pentax_22.jpg, it looks like the electronics of the 645D itself is thicker than the K-7. As well as looking like there's a fair amount of empty space...

03-15-2010, 07:50 AM   #710
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I asked myself the very same question and had a look into this. E.g., I compared MTF performance of the new Leica S2 lenses and the SMC P-A 645 120/4 Macro.
-> https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/952034-post32.html

My general finding is that existing Pentax MF glass is a tad weaker than 35mm Limiteds (according to photodo) and the new S2 lenses are just stellar compared to anything. Don't know for the new DFA 55/2.8 which may or may not be excellent too.

Is this enough? Well, it depends on the point of view.

It is correct, you can expect about the same 100% crop quality we're now getting with a K-7 (5オm with slightly sharper lenses). And 100% crops typically don't look as sharp as at reduced sizes which is why we almost always sharpen. This means to expect a 60% increase in effective linear resolution over a K-7.

On the other hand, some people in the digital MF realm expect tack-sharp 100% crops. Something not known from APS-C or FF SLRs. But Leica M9 and S2 have demonstrated that be feasible. This means to expect a 100% increase in effective linear resolution over a K-7.

So, the question of being worried about resolution depends on the exact reason why you spent a five-digit amount of money.


Recent news I heard about the 645D seem to mean that Pentax did the same evaluation. E.g., the AA filter (645D is announced to have no AA filter) can be had as an option, for people not hunting for ultimate crop resolution. It remains to be seen if the new DFA 645 lenses are made for the other kind of people
Those Leica MTF figures are incredible. Still, due to the larger pixel-pitch and lower level of enlargement, I wonder where the threshold is where a lens will look sharp no matter what on the MF sensors. As long as the Pentax lenses are near or above that threshold, I'm not worried about them delivering the sensor's promised resolution. The Leicas may be overkill until we start seeing MF sensors with even higher pixel densities.
03-15-2010, 07:57 AM   #711
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I agree, they were concerned with Retro Look instead of total redesign

I agree, they were concerned with Retro Look instead of total redesign.

Unless those electrical components needed additional room to cool inside the weather sealed body?


QuoteOriginally posted by AdrianN Quote
Looking at the cut-away photo http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/dcw/docs/354/026/pentax_22.jpg, it looks like the electronics of the 645D itself is thicker than the K-7. As well as looking like there's a fair amount of empty space...
03-15-2010, 08:09 AM   #712
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
D3x is $7469, about $2,000 less & available now in USA today
Why do you guys keep comparing japanese oranges with american apples?

645D: ¥848,000
????.com-????-??????????4000???????????????645D?

D3x: ¥832,000
????.com- ??? D3X [???]

The difference gets a little bigger if you have a card from Yodobashi (you need to be resident in Japan), you get 10% bonus points on the 645D and 14% on the D3x. So you end up with the following prices with current exchange rates:

645D: USD 8422
D3x: USD 7896

So, if you compare in the same shop in the market where you actually can order the 645D, AND you're able to use the yodobashi card, the difference is still less than 600 $.
03-15-2010, 08:16 AM   #713
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Why do you guys keep comparing japanese oranges with american apples?

645D: ¥848,000
????.com-????-??????????4000???????????????645D?

D3x: ¥832,000
????.com- ??? D3X [???]

The difference gets a little bigger if you have a card from Yodobashi (you need to be resident in Japan), you get 10% bonus points on the 645D and 14% on the D3x. So you end up with the following prices with current exchange rates:

645D: USD 8422
D3x: USD 7896

So, if you compare in the same shop in the market where you actually can order the 645D, AND you're able to use the yodobashi card, the difference is still less than 600 $.
Rather interesting...I think 645D will be the hit in Japan.

03-15-2010, 08:36 AM   #714
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Just out of curiousity, will there be a vertical grip for it?
03-15-2010, 08:37 AM   #715
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Rather interesting...I think 645D will be the hit in Japan.
Yes, the pricing looks really competitive to me.

And if we speculate 2 or 3 years into the future, if the 645D really is a big hit, I think we may see new and different cameras in the 645 system: Different crops, different body styles (obviously it will at some point be possible to make a much more compact camera) - and also different sensors, maybe CMOS with live view etc.
03-15-2010, 09:16 AM   #716
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
$9400 is insane, whether its perceived to be a good deal or not. I'm not the target market for the Hassy, so $30,000 cameras were completely off my shopping radar.
That was an awful lot of words about how you're not the target market.

But $9400 is not insane; it's the going rate in Japan for cameras of a certain quality. It's also half the price of the competition.

The 645D is not the GH1. That's not even comparing apples to oranges, more like platypus to internal combustion engines.

QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
I'm glad alot of people here at pentaxforums can afford $9400 and will buy a 645D to chit chat about. Thats great for Pentax & I hope your marriages survive the 645D camera purchase.
Why so bitter?
03-15-2010, 09:17 AM   #717
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Yes, the pricing looks really competitive to me.

And if we speculate 2 or 3 years into the future, if the 645D really is a big hit, I think we may see new and different cameras in the 645 system: Different crops, different body styles (obviously it will at some point be possible to make a much more compact camera) - and also different sensors, maybe CMOS with live view etc.
My friend (from Pentax China) says that Pentax has plan to lauch second (cheaper) MF camera. It's ready on paper.
Not this year, maybe in 2011. They will analyze the situation with sales of 645D till the end of 2010 and than decide if they make such camera. He says that it's 100% true information. But...It's hard to say now if 645D (II) will be or not.

Last edited by ogl; 03-15-2010 at 06:02 PM.
03-15-2010, 09:30 AM   #718
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The D3x has only 24.5MP. If you are only interested in shooting landscape, I'd say D3x is pretty terrible in the bang for buck department. The 645D might actually be a better deal(per MP) for those who can afford it.
03-15-2010, 09:39 AM   #719
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QuoteOriginally posted by cousinsane Quote
The D3x has only 24.5MP. If you are only interested in shooting landscape, I'd say D3x is pretty terrible in the bang for buck department. The 645D might actually be a better deal(per MP) for those who can afford it.
Have you used any of those ? The 14Mpx of the K20D are plenty enough to print A2 and even the 10MPx from the K10D were decent. As difficult as comparing film and digital, you can compare a 6x7 slide to a 20MPx picture.

I don't think we can say that the D3x is a bac camera for lanscape, it's just that the 40Mpx without AA filter would be better on paper.

Lets wait for a real world professionnal landscape photographer to make a real world comparison based on massive prints and we may start discussing.

Interrestingly, I've never live the era of film, but Internet memory keeps the traces of the "fight" between 35mm film vs MF (6x6, 645, 6x7) I have the feeling that we are about to live that fight again.
03-15-2010, 10:35 AM   #720
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QuoteOriginally posted by cousinsane Quote
The D3x has only 24.5MP. If you are only interested in shooting landscape, I'd say D3x is pretty terrible in the bang for buck department. The 645D might actually be a better deal(per MP) for those who can afford it.
For landscapes it's hard to beat the A850 at under $2k.
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