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03-17-2010, 09:11 AM   #766
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
There was an article in the latest Outdoor Photographer about a guy who replaced his big View camera w/ a D3x and a tilt/shift lens.
Apparently, a full exposure w/ the View camera takes 10seconds.
If he does multiple shots w/ the D3x and a TS lens, it takes 6 seconds to take all the shots. Then he stitches and crops to get a final result that he thinks is as good as the result.
I didn't realize view cameras take that long to do exposures but they do supposedly need craploads of studio lighting power for studio shots...
View Camera shots could take 10 seconds or ten minutes or whatever exposure you need. The same rules of film speed, aperatures and shutter speeds apply although usually smaller aperatures such as f32 are used but 100 ISO at f32 is the same exposure time on LF as 35mm or digital if you have a lens that stops that far. He had also meantioned that he still will use LF for some purposes. And Dykiska (forget the acutal spelling) has always been a colour photographer. Most of my exposures outside are less than 1/25 second or 1/30 depending on shutter I am using. I can use the same exposure on my 4X5 as on my K10D if I so wish.

Often the high amount of light is required for close up work as bellow extension robs the film of light for lack of better explaination. But you can take a shot with LF with a flash or even room light. The larger the format the more light is needed as often the lenses are slower and one stops down more.

On another forum there was a wildlife photographer who moved up from a D3 to a D3X and wanted even more quality in his enlargements. The advice on this forum which has many MFD users is that MF was not the right format for much of his shooting due partly to lack of long lenses however many suggested that instead of replacing his D3X with a MFD he supplement it and that probably the best medium format solution to his needs would be the Pentax 645D due to the lenses available for that system.

The best tool for the job does not mean the best camera in the world, just the most appropiate one.

03-17-2010, 01:20 PM   #767
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
Often the high amount of light is required for close up work as bellow extension robs the film of light
That was my understanding of how LF worked...less light gets onto the film than from smaller formats, or you could run ISO800 on the latest FF cameras and it's as sharp as ISO100 on LF.
But the interesting takeway from the article was the Dyskika (sp?) was happy enough using a TS lens as long as the time to shoot the overlapping shots was *less* than the exposure needed on LF to get the same shot.
03-17-2010, 05:26 PM   #768
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
That was my understanding of how LF worked...less light gets onto the film than from smaller formats, or you could run ISO800 on the latest FF cameras and it's as sharp as ISO100 on LF.
But the interesting takeway from the article was the Dyskika (sp?) was happy enough using a TS lens as long as the time to shoot the overlapping shots was *less* than the exposure needed on LF to get the same shot.
Not sure I understand your comment on ISO 800 equal to 100 on lF. I'll need to go back to the original article.

I had meant only on close ups when bellow extension is required for macro work. If you use a hand hold light meter and it gives a reading of say 1/100 at f11 for a landscape shot that is what you would set your camera to regardless if it was DSLR, 35mm film, medium format film or digital, 4X5, 8X10 or 20X24.

Tontality rather than sharpness is the advantage of large formats of either digital or film, or so I am told as never used large digital than full frame. That and camera movements and just looking into a huge viewfinder. I routinely shoot 32 and 50 ISO on my 4X5 and use shutter speeds between 1/2 and 1/125 seconds
03-17-2010, 06:17 PM   #769
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Pentacon 6000 S

QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
Apparently, a full exposure w/ the View camera takes 10seconds.
Browsing the catalogue of monochrom.com, a great photo retail store in Berlin,
www.monochrom.com,

I found the following camera:


The Pentacon 6000 S.
PENTACON Scanner: Scan 6000

This is a 100 Megapixel camera for only 50% more than a Pentax 645D costs (14,875.- incl. 19% VAT, $17,100.- w/o tax).

(BTW, a cheaper 80 MP variant with Nikon mount sells for what 645D is called for).

It has a 4040mm image area and Schneider-Kreuznach M39 mount (Schneider PC Super-Angulon etc.).

The only caveat is 40s image capture time. Much in line with the expectations of the view camera folks, it seems. So, this should be their camera.


Interestingly, this digital 100 MP camera was not noticed by a wider web audience
Especially, it should make for a great Nikon lens test device and dpreview and alike should have one

[IMGWIDELEFT]http://www.monochrom.com/cc/monoc/int/bild/600x600/208-682.jpg[/IMGWIDELEFT]


Last edited by falconeye; 03-17-2010 at 06:29 PM.
03-17-2010, 07:06 PM   #770
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
But is it really required to use a tilt lens for architectural shots? I.e., is the depth of field really too narrow for an entire building?
Shift is what one needs for architecture , to keep perspective lines correct. Tilt is what one needs for landscape, to allow apparent increase in DOF.
03-17-2010, 07:40 PM   #771
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
your logic somehow follows that of why people should not buy premium lenses because they are obsolete. and that kit lenses or average lenses are enough since post-processing software can do what a premium lens can.

not to mention that upgrading from a current APS-C or FF to a future APS-C and FF is unnecessary since software can do it as well. we can say that future APS-C and FF dslrs are obsolete as well.

of course this is a cheap alternative that would cost you just below $100 bucks. but whether you like it or not, there will be people that will look for something in a camera that other cameras don't have, and not look for a cheap alternative.

same logic as to why people prefer such camera system. it is not a discussion of obsoleteness but practical use for a certain user. point is, a person chose to ride a motorbike, not a modern bicycle, does not imply primitiveness.
Ease up there, chief. I was displaying my sense of humor there, not my sense of logic.
03-18-2010, 07:01 AM   #772
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
Not sure I understand your comment on ISO 800 equal to 100 on lF. I'll need to go back to the original article.
I think his logic was that the D3x is essentially noiseless up to ISO800 (and probably ISO1600), so he could use it like he did ISO100 on film in his view camera.
That's the only way he could do the full PC lens tilt/shift sequence in 6sec since has to take a bunch of frames to get as much resolution as a view camera...
03-18-2010, 08:34 AM   #773
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
Ease up there, chief. I was displaying my sense of humor there, not my sense of logic.
ok chief. my bad.

03-18-2010, 01:45 PM   #774
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Shift is what one needs for architecture , to keep perspective lines correct. Tilt is what one needs for landscape, to allow apparent increase in DOF.
Tilt, rise and swing are used in architectural or landscape shots for prespective correction. Shift allows for things like shooting straight into windows or mirors without having the refection of the camera or photographer in the image. Shift will not straighten converging lines. Tilt and swing are used for increasing DOF depending on if the plane of focus is horizontal or vertical. Not all view cameras have all movements either. And some have only movements on one standard whereas some are on both front and rear standard and the results are different.
03-18-2010, 01:56 PM   #775
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
I think his logic was that the D3x is essentially noiseless up to ISO800 (and probably ISO1600), so he could use it like he did ISO100 on film in his view camera.
That's the only way he could do the full PC lens tilt/shift sequence in 6sec since has to take a bunch of frames to get as much resolution as a view camera...

Sorry this makes no sense as if all he is doing is tilt and shift he would not be having images to stitch together as the circle of illumination on Nikon 35mm lenses is not that greater. He is doing multilple exposures by sliding his camera and raising it as well and stiching the images. He uses huge files to compete with the quality he got from LF. As he had his film images scanned before he was also working with huge files from his viewcamera. With the greater resolution of the digital lenses compared to LF flim lenses which do not require such resolution he should be able to get a clearer image from the digital than a single sheet of 4X5 film. This techinic is obviously not a new one for digital photographers, just perhaps for the author of the article

One of the reasons that LF use long exposure is to create flowing motion in clouds and water and this can be done with digital only by also using long exposures. Again exposures on a LF camera are the same as other cameras and many LF ers are using TMY-2 at 400 iso anyways and that would give a one stop longer exposure than would 800 on digital. The length of exposure is due to ISO, shutter speed, f stop and light except for macro work.
03-18-2010, 02:43 PM   #776
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
Shift will not straighten converging lines.
Er, say what? Surely that is the main purpose of shift lenses?

References:
1. Canon
2. Cambridge in Colour
03-18-2010, 03:40 PM   #777
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
He is doing multilple exposures by sliding his camera and raising it as well and stiching the images.
I thought he was doing this too, but there was a paragraph where he specifically said with TS, he sometimes even moves the camera for panoramas (implying he doesn't move the camera otherwise).
Here's another photographer that does the same technique:
Tilt & Shift To Boost Your Megapixels - Outdoor Photographer | OutdoorPhotographer.com

Makes me wish we had some decent TS lenses for Pentax DSLRs :-)
03-18-2010, 04:00 PM   #778
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Thanks for all the explainations.

But there seems to be a tendency to confirm that the main purpose is perspective control in architectural shots. If this is true, I must repeat my question:

Why don't these guys use a straight lens and nodal point turns?

With software like Autopano Pro I imagine that results would be superior and the image taking procedure be simpler and faster.

Are shift lenses a thing of the analog past?
03-18-2010, 04:14 PM   #779
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
. . .

Are shift lenses a thing of the analog past?
The tilt/shift lenses were certainly designed for film. However, analog is still in use obviously and since many of us have a foot in each world . . . we are bound to mess around with the systems.
03-18-2010, 04:53 PM   #780
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Er, say what? Surely that is the main purpose of shift lenses?

References:
1. Canon
2. Cambridge in Colour
Look up movements in any book on large format cameras such as Using the View Camera by Jim Stone and Large Format Nature Photography by jack Dykinga; tilts and swings for horizontal and vertical perspectives and shifts to centre a subject. Rigid body cameras such as 35mm/DSLRs have limited movements hence they might have to do with swing and tilt only. I was responding to the view camera movements whereas I have only used a shift/tilt lens once. Again the camera movements opposed to lens movements.

There is a reason that some with digital cameras both DSLRs and MFD conect their body to a view camera or technical camera in order to obtain the movments that a view camera provides.

I am sure there are countless web sites that refer to camera movments as well such as largeformatphotography.info if you wish to find out more. Canon and Nikon are only providing what is practical for one format. It is not that I am right and you are wrong but I am referring to LF and you are to 35mm format. Hope that explains what I have meant.
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