Tokina plans 16-28mm F2.8 for full-frame. Is that a singht?

i83N · 02-22-2010, 05:58 PM

Is that a singht, that Pentax next DSLR will be FF? As we all know Tokina and Pentax are partners and alot of lens desine from Tokina are Pentax copies just with another mount.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1002/10022211tokina16282pt8.asp

ewalk · 02-22-2010, 07:14 PM

it'll be interesting if it's available for the K-mount.

something tells me that it won't.

LeDave · 02-22-2010, 07:17 PM

Haven't seen any new Tokina lenses for K-mount for awhile, but however this could show up. As for this lens, it probably does not mean anything at all to Pentax. I think it is Tokina themselves who probably designed this lens from bottom up, they've been known for making other full frame lenses with their own R&D that are nice and sharp.

jogiba · 02-22-2010, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by ewalk

it'll be interesting if it's available for the K-mount.

something tells me that it won't.

Yes, a FF K-mount .

Supernaut · 02-23-2010, 12:23 AM

People here seems good at finding patents. Maybe someone can dig something up. Is it owned by Pentax or Tokina?

PentaxPoke · 02-23-2010, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by ewalk

it'll be interesting if it's available for the K-mount.

something tells me that it won't.

Agreed. Folks, I really believe what Ned, and another Pentax rep said in an interview about a year ago on the issue of FF. They are just not going in that direction, I just don't think it is going to happen anytime soon. Pentax's "FF" is going to be the 645D.

I'm sure the Tokina is for other brands.

i83N · 02-23-2010, 01:17 AM

As I recall the limeted edition lensis such as 43mm and 77mm sopused to sopurt never realesed pentax FF MZ-D. And now they show us limeted K7 with bouth of those lenses...

Tommy · 02-23-2010, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by Supernaut

People here seems good at finding patents. Maybe someone can dig something up. Is it owned by Pentax or Tokina?

Can you really get a patent on a lens design? Just combining different lens elements to get a certain focal length and a certain maximum aperture sounds like daily work for a lens designer and not very special. But of course, something could still be very different with this lens that qualifies it for a patent.

I just think this is Tokinas way to reply to all the Sigma lenses covering full frame. Doesn't the 16-50 F2.8 cover full frame? Then again, that has been discontinued...

Supernaut · 02-23-2010, 01:59 AM

Tommy; I have seen people posting what I understood was patents of lens designs before in order to make clear who is behind the lens designs.
The 16-50 is crop only.

I wouldn't take even Ned's word that there is no FF in the pipeline. The old strategy with aps-c only is from the Pentax era. Hoya might judge the future market and competition differently. I understand the strategy when dicided since the sensor prices were very high then. Situation is different now and changing still.

thibs · 02-23-2010, 04:28 AM

Originally posted by Tommy

Can you really get a patent on a lens design? Just combining different lens elements to get a certain focal length and a certain maximum aperture sounds like daily work for a lens designer and not very special. But of course, something could still be very different with this lens that qualifies it for a patent.

Yep, that way some guys found out that almost all lenses shared between Pentax and Tokina were designed by Pentax.

Tommy · 02-23-2010, 05:39 AM

Originally posted by Supernaut

Tommy; I have seen people posting what I understood was patents of lens designs before in order to make clear who is behind the lens designs.
The 16-50 is crop only.

You are right! I wanted to doublecheck before I posted but was in a hurry. This was what I was looking for:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/470261-post83.html
Then the new lens makes a little more sense to me.

Originally posted by thibs

Yep, that way some guys found out that almost all lenses shared between Pentax and Tokina were designed by Pentax.

I find that interesting! Maybe I just underestimated the work behind a new lens design.
/Tommy

Miserere · 02-23-2010, 09:47 AM

Tommy, a lot of work goes into designing a new lens. It's not just the shape of the glass elements that comes into play, but also their placement and the material they're made out of. Most glass for lenses is supplied in standard sizes and materials; then it's the job of the optical engineer to organise a subset of them in such a way that they produce an image on the sensor plane.

This is most definitely patentable, the same way a book can be copyrighted. A book is nothing but a collection of words that belong to no one, yet the way they are organised is particular to each novel, story, etc. and can be copyrighted to protect the author's rights. Same thing with a lens.

.

Tommy · 02-23-2010, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by Miserere

Tommy, a lot of work goes into designing a new lens. It's not just the shape of the glass elements that comes into play, but also their placement and the material they're made out of. Most glass for lenses is supplied in standard sizes and materials; then it's the job of the optical engineer to organise a subset of them in such a way that they produce an image on the sensor plane.
This is most definitely patentable, the same way a book can be copyrighted. A book is nothing but a collection of words that belong to no one, yet the way they are organised is particular to each novel, story, etc. and can be copyrighted to protect the author's rights. Same thing with a lens.
.

Yeah, you are right. My initial thought was maybe a little simplified. I have the impression that in some areas of technology it is a lot harder to get a patent than in others and definitely harder than to get a copyright on a book. It's not enough to make a new thing, it has to be revolutionary to qualify for a patent. But that is only my personal impression and I could be very wrong here. I actually like your book-analogy.....I guess technology can differ as much as books. It could be just-another-novel that hits the bestseller lists for a while and is then forgotten (but still, of course, a new and different story). Or it could be a revolutionary book than no one ever forgets.
To get back on topic a little....personally I would only buy a 16-28 if I had a full-frame sensor. With APS-C, the zoom range is a little strange....but with FF it is suddenly an ultra-wide and the short zoom-range is excused. Seems like Sigma and Tokina are planning for more FF cameras being sold. I can't imagine that many 1D MkIV users buying third part lenses so they must be aimed at the cheaper FF cameras. We haven't seen many of these....A850 is one. Do you think Sigma, Tokina and Tamron knows something about Pentax (or Sony, Canon, Nikon or Olympus for that matter) plans for sensor sizes in future cameras before we know?

jsherman999 · 02-23-2010, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Tommy

...Seems like Sigma and Tokina are planning for more FF cameras being sold. I can't imagine that many 1D MkIV users buying third part lenses so they must be aimed at the cheaper FF cameras. We haven't seen many of these....A850 is one. Do you think Sigma, Tokina and Tamron knows something about Pentax (or Sony, Canon, Nikon or Olympus for that matter) plans for sensor sizes in future cameras before we know?

.

Could be. Could also be that with some upcoming FF bodies in Summer/Fall 2010, the current D700/5D bodies will be going around $2100 new and $1800 used, which suddenly makes FF bust into a new market. Tokina/Sigma can sell a lot of lenses to those new FF'ers.

Right now the D700 is $2300 new - not too shabby for what you get.

Miserere · 02-23-2010, 01:50 PM

To get back on topic, the 16-28mm f/2.8 range on FF is only slightly longer (at the long end) than the 11-16mm f/2.8 for APS-C. Makes sense for Tokina to manufacture this lens for the cheapskates buying low-end full-frame DSLRs, like J. said. Especially when the OEM equivalents are generally as expensive as the cameras themselves.

.

02-22-2010, 05:58 PM	#1
i83N Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Lithuania Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,203	Tokina plans 16-28mm F2.8 for full-frame. Is that a singht? Is that a singht, that Pentax next DSLR will be FF? As we all know Tokina and Pentax are partners and alot of lens desine from Tokina are Pentax copies just with another mount. http://www.dpreview.com/news/1002/10022211tokina16282pt8.asp

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02-22-2010, 07:14 PM	#2
ewalk Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 316	it'll be interesting if it's available for the K-mount. something tells me that it won't.

02-22-2010, 07:17 PM	#3
LeDave Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Minneapolis - St. Paul Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,067	Haven't seen any new Tokina lenses for K-mount for awhile, but however this could show up. As for this lens, it probably does not mean anything at all to Pentax. I think it is Tokina themselves who probably designed this lens from bottom up, they've been known for making other full frame lenses with their own R&D that are nice and sharp.

02-22-2010, 07:28 PM	#4
jogiba Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Millstone,NJ Posts: 6,491	Originally posted by ewalk it'll be interesting if it's available for the K-mount. something tells me that it won't. Yes, a FF K-mount .

02-23-2010, 12:23 AM	#5
Supernaut Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: West Coast , Sweden Posts: 467	People here seems good at finding patents. Maybe someone can dig something up. Is it owned by Pentax or Tokina?

02-23-2010, 12:30 AM	#6
PentaxPoke Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,411	Originally posted by ewalk it'll be interesting if it's available for the K-mount. something tells me that it won't. Agreed. Folks, I really believe what Ned, and another Pentax rep said in an interview about a year ago on the issue of FF. They are just not going in that direction, I just don't think it is going to happen anytime soon. Pentax's "FF" is going to be the 645D. I'm sure the Tokina is for other brands.

02-23-2010, 01:17 AM	#7
i83N Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Lithuania Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,203 Original Poster	As I recall the limeted edition lensis such as 43mm and 77mm sopused to sopurt never realesed pentax FF MZ-D. And now they show us limeted K7 with bouth of those lenses...

02-23-2010, 01:24 AM	#8
Tommy Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 195	Originally posted by Supernaut People here seems good at finding patents. Maybe someone can dig something up. Is it owned by Pentax or Tokina? Can you really get a patent on a lens design? Just combining different lens elements to get a certain focal length and a certain maximum aperture sounds like daily work for a lens designer and not very special. But of course, something could still be very different with this lens that qualifies it for a patent. I just think this is Tokinas way to reply to all the Sigma lenses covering full frame. Doesn't the 16-50 F2.8 cover full frame? Then again, that has been discontinued...

02-23-2010, 01:59 AM	#9
Supernaut Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: West Coast , Sweden Posts: 467	Tommy; I have seen people posting what I understood was patents of lens designs before in order to make clear who is behind the lens designs. The 16-50 is crop only. I wouldn't take even Ned's word that there is no FF in the pipeline. The old strategy with aps-c only is from the Pentax era. Hoya might judge the future market and competition differently. I understand the strategy when dicided since the sensor prices were very high then. Situation is different now and changing still.

02-23-2010, 04:28 AM	#10
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by Tommy Can you really get a patent on a lens design? Just combining different lens elements to get a certain focal length and a certain maximum aperture sounds like daily work for a lens designer and not very special. But of course, something could still be very different with this lens that qualifies it for a patent. Yep, that way some guys found out that almost all lenses shared between Pentax and Tokina were designed by Pentax.

02-23-2010, 05:39 AM	#11
Tommy Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 195	Originally posted by Supernaut Tommy; I have seen people posting what I understood was patents of lens designs before in order to make clear who is behind the lens designs. The 16-50 is crop only. You are right! I wanted to doublecheck before I posted but was in a hurry. This was what I was looking for: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/470261-post83.html Then the new lens makes a little more sense to me. Originally posted by thibs Yep, that way some guys found out that almost all lenses shared between Pentax and Tokina were designed by Pentax. I find that interesting! Maybe I just underestimated the work behind a new lens design. /Tommy

02-23-2010, 09:47 AM	#12
Miserere Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Boston Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,993	Tommy, a lot of work goes into designing a new lens. It's not just the shape of the glass elements that comes into play, but also their placement and the material they're made out of. Most glass for lenses is supplied in standard sizes and materials; then it's the job of the optical engineer to organise a subset of them in such a way that they produce an image on the sensor plane. This is most definitely patentable, the same way a book can be copyrighted. A book is nothing but a collection of words that belong to no one, yet the way they are organised is particular to each novel, story, etc. and can be copyrighted to protect the author's rights. Same thing with a lens. .

02-23-2010, 11:08 AM	#13
Tommy Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 195	Originally posted by Miserere Tommy, a lot of work goes into designing a new lens. It's not just the shape of the glass elements that comes into play, but also their placement and the material they're made out of. Most glass for lenses is supplied in standard sizes and materials; then it's the job of the optical engineer to organise a subset of them in such a way that they produce an image on the sensor plane. This is most definitely patentable, the same way a book can be copyrighted. A book is nothing but a collection of words that belong to no one, yet the way they are organised is particular to each novel, story, etc. and can be copyrighted to protect the author's rights. Same thing with a lens. . Yeah, you are right. My initial thought was maybe a little simplified. I have the impression that in some areas of technology it is a lot harder to get a patent than in others and definitely harder than to get a copyright on a book. It's not enough to make a new thing, it has to be revolutionary to qualify for a patent. But that is only my personal impression and I could be very wrong here. I actually like your book-analogy.....I guess technology can differ as much as books. It could be just-another-novel that hits the bestseller lists for a while and is then forgotten (but still, of course, a new and different story). Or it could be a revolutionary book than no one ever forgets. To get back on topic a little....personally I would only buy a 16-28 if I had a full-frame sensor. With APS-C, the zoom range is a little strange....but with FF it is suddenly an ultra-wide and the short zoom-range is excused. Seems like Sigma and Tokina are planning for more FF cameras being sold. I can't imagine that many 1D MkIV users buying third part lenses so they must be aimed at the cheaper FF cameras. We haven't seen many of these....A850 is one. Do you think Sigma, Tokina and Tamron knows something about Pentax (or Sony, Canon, Nikon or Olympus for that matter) plans for sensor sizes in future cameras before we know?

02-23-2010, 01:17 PM	#14
jsherman999 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,237	Originally posted by Tommy ...Seems like Sigma and Tokina are planning for more FF cameras being sold. I can't imagine that many 1D MkIV users buying third part lenses so they must be aimed at the cheaper FF cameras. We haven't seen many of these....A850 is one. Do you think Sigma, Tokina and Tamron knows something about Pentax (or Sony, Canon, Nikon or Olympus for that matter) plans for sensor sizes in future cameras before we know? . Could be. Could also be that with some upcoming FF bodies in Summer/Fall 2010, the current D700/5D bodies will be going around $2100 new and $1800 used, which suddenly makes FF bust into a new market. Tokina/Sigma can sell a lot of lenses to those new FF'ers. Right now the D700 is $2300 new - not too shabby for what you get.

02-23-2010, 01:50 PM	#15
Miserere Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Boston Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,993	To get back on topic, the 16-28mm f/2.8 range on FF is only slightly longer (at the long end) than the 11-16mm f/2.8 for APS-C. Makes sense for Tokina to manufacture this lens for the cheapskates buying low-end full-frame DSLRs, like J. said. Especially when the OEM equivalents are generally as expensive as the cameras themselves. .