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03-11-2010, 07:03 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by gubak Quote
Same pixel count and same image sensor size as the newly announced Mamiya MF digital. But Mamiya has 16 bit color and penatx only has 14 bit (here are the 645D specification: Pentax 645D specification ). How did pentax lose 2 bits of color if the image sensor is the same which is seems likely it is? Maybe this is how pentax is able to sell the camera for so cheap compared to Mamiya.
This is why it's so dangerous to publish tech specs (and why DXOmark has created such a mess of debate).

16 > 14, therefore must be better.

03-11-2010, 08:12 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by seliscan Quote
Mirek, you are all wrong, if 14 where 16384 colors, than your 12 bit from your APS-C will be like shit, no offense.

14 bits of color it really is 4 billion colors! Read the 123di for more details...
Printing is done at 8 bit. It doesn't matter if you have a 12 bit, 14 bit or 16 bit image, it's going to get dumbed down to 8 bit.
My understanding is that the Mamiya is padding out a 14 bit sensor to get a 16 bit file, which means it isn't really so much a 16 bit file as it is a 14 bit file with some window dressing.
03-11-2010, 08:24 AM   #48
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The 645D has 11.5 stops of DR compared to Mamiya's 12 stops. That is probably due to the difference between 14 bit color and 16 bit color. That being said, I don't believe you would be able to tell the difference in a photograph any smaller than BILLBOARD size. If this trivial difference allows Pentax to sell the camera for less than HALF the price of the Mamiya, then Pentax has displayed genius in its strategy.
03-11-2010, 08:33 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tbear Quote
The 645D has 11.5 stops of DR compared to Mamiya's 12 stops. That is probably due to the difference between 14 bit color and 16 bit color.
Why do you think so? Doesn't the 645D have a higher base ISO - and couldn't that explain a slightly lower DR?

03-11-2010, 08:40 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by seliscan Quote
Mirek, you are all wrong, if 14 where 16384 colors, than your 12 bit from your APS-C will be like shit, no offense.

14 bits of color it really is 4 billion colors! Read the 123di for more details...
If you took the time to read through my post and understand what I actually said, you would have understood that I was trying to explain to RuiC the same thing you are explaining to me now - that the 12, or 14-bit color information is the information PER COMPONENT, yielding the final color depth of 42 bits for 645D and 36 bits for my APS-C. Of course, these are billions of colors.

The last sentence in my post, which was the only thing you apparently read, was trying to show to him how much color would result from his interpretation. If the sensor would produce only 14 bits of *RGB* data, like he initially stated, then it would have resulted in 16384 colors - which of course is impossible, which I was trying to prove.
03-11-2010, 09:08 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I do so love it when Pentax stirs the pot

DPReview Canon Talk

Running Scared?
Yep. This is my favorite response so far:

Re: Pentax 40MP camera, good news for us!: Canon EOS-1D / 1Ds / 5D Forum: Digital Photography Review


QuoteQuote:
QuoteQuote:
Anastigmat wrote:
I agree. It is going to put price pressure on the ridiculously overpriced Canon 1DS and the Nikon D3X.
Well, probably not. Read on.
Wrong technology: CCD sensor is noisier than CMOS
Limited ISO range
Limited lens offerings
1.1 frames per second??????
No movie mode

At which point I spit coffee on the keyboard from laughing so hard...

It's a *landscapes* camera, and I want one!
03-11-2010, 09:45 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by panoguy Quote
Yep. This is my favorite response so far:

Re: Pentax 40MP camera, good news for us!: Canon EOS-1D / 1Ds / 5D Forum: Digital Photography Review





At which point I spit coffee on the keyboard from laughing so hard...

It's a *landscapes* camera, and I want one!
LMAOF !

the person must be completely clueless what a medium format camera is and it is capable of.

I could simply say that it is a medium format and it would simply cut the discussion short. but anyways, here are just some counters.

wrong technology: CCD sensor is noisier than CMOS <<< false statement.
Limited ISO range <<< the 645D has a great dynamic range from base ISO to 1600 that would make HIGH ISO results look like a joke.
limited lens offerings <<< for now, but that doesn't mean Pentax won't make a series of lenses for it. and besides, if they were available, I'm not sure if people with limited budget would be able to purchase them.
1.1 fps speed <<< obviously this is not for action type photography
movie mode <<< this is not a video camera either.

what I found out is I seldom use movie mode and prefer still photos. I have only used the movie mode about 1%-2% of the time. and would rather carry a small pocket sized HD recorder.

it is funny how people underestimate CCD technology for being old, yet it still is the king in DR as proven by present day cameras. the Fuji S5pro for example is an old camera, yet it still can't be toppled by newer CMOS sensor in that department.
03-11-2010, 09:56 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
LMAOF !

the person must be completely clueless what a medium format camera is and it is capable of.

I could simply say that it is a medium format and it would simply cut the discussion short. but anyways, here are just some counters.

wrong technology: CCD sensor is noisier than CMOS <<< false statement.
Limited ISO range <<< the 645D has a great dynamic range from base ISO to 1600 that would make HIGH ISO results look like a joke.
limited lens offerings <<< for now, but that doesn't mean Pentax won't make a series of lenses for it. and besides, if they were available, I'm not sure if people with limited budget would be able to purchase them.
1.1 fps speed <<< obviously this is not for action type photography
movie mode <<< this is not a video camera either.

what I found out is I seldom use movie mode and prefer still photos. I have only used the movie mode about 1%-2% of the time. and would rather carry a small pocket sized HD recorder.

it is funny how people underestimate CCD technology for being old, yet it still is the king in DR as proven by present day cameras. the Fuji S5pro for example is an old camera, yet it still can't be toppled by newer CMOS sensor in that department.
Fuji S5 is not CCD, they have their own funky technology that is basically coupling together 2 pixel for each effective pixel, one is underexposed, one over-exposed.

The fact is that a lot of user have moved from MF to FF SLR when making the move from film to digital. For those user, Digital MF was too expensive, I would expect Pentax to be seriously tempting for those user.

03-11-2010, 11:36 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
Fuji S5 is not CCD, they have their own funky technology that is basically coupling together 2 pixel for each effective pixel, one is underexposed, one over-exposed.
Actually, that is just half-true.
Indeed, Fuji uses their own unique technology with two sensing elements for one effective pixel, resulting with much greater dynamic range, but, physically and electronically, that is still just plain old CCD technology - after all, it's officially called "SuperCCD".

Both CMOS and CCD technology have their own good and bad sides, but most notable difference is in the way how the image is captured. CCD uses full-frame transfer (global shutter), meaning that whole image area is grabbed in one pass and passed down the signal processing pipeline as one stream of data, while CMOS uses rolling-shutter transfer, meaning that sensor area is scanned one line at a time, and dumped to A/D converter (and beyond). So when you see all those funky photos of distorted rotor blades on planes and helicopters (like this), you can be sure that photo was taken with CMOS sensor. With CCD sensors, something like that is not possible.
03-11-2010, 11:40 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Erm... no green line on CCD sensors.
It was a joke Denis.
03-11-2010, 11:52 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
Fuji S5 is not CCD, they have their own funky technology that is basically coupling together 2 pixel for each effective pixel, one is underexposed, one over-exposed.

The fact is that a lot of user have moved from MF to FF SLR when making the move from film to digital. For those user, Digital MF was too expensive, I would expect Pentax to be seriously tempting for those user.
actually Fuji has their own technology based on CCD sensor design. it is called as Super-CCD, not Super Cmos nor anything else. elkarrde explained it perfectly.

Last edited by Pentaxor; 03-11-2010 at 12:37 PM.
03-11-2010, 11:58 AM   #57
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Indeed, sorry Mirek for the confusion.
03-11-2010, 01:35 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by panoguy Quote
Yep. This is my favorite response so far:

Re: Pentax 40MP camera, good news for us!: Canon EOS-1D / 1Ds / 5D Forum: Digital Photography Review

At which point I spit coffee on the keyboard from laughing so hard...
I rarely go the discussion part of that Forum The reviews give complete technical descriptions and I can judge with my own eyes the relative merits of their posted images (their commentary discounted for prejudice).
QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
LMAOF !

the person must be completely clueless what a medium format camera is and it is capable of. The discussions are unbearable.

I could simply say that it is a medium format and it would simply cut the discussion short. but anyways, here are just some counters.

wrong technology: CCD sensor is noisier than CMOS <<< false statement.
Limited ISO range <<< the 645D has a great dynamic range from base ISO to 1600 that would make HIGH ISO results look like a joke.
limited lens offerings <<< for now, but that doesn't mean Pentax won't make a series of lenses for it. and besides, if they were available, I'm not sure if people with limited budget would be able to purchase them.
Saw a pciture on another 645 thread here Pentax is showing for active sale 17 FA 645 lenses up to 600mm at CP+ (nesster actually handled the sample 645D) - big display of lenses. Yes, they will release SDM lenses with coated rear elements, but there is an excellent supply of legacy 645 lenses still in production for the home market.

Photo of FA 645 Lenses offered

Interchangeable Lenses

Wide-Angle Zoom Lenses
smc PENTAX-FA645 Zoom 33mm-55mm F4.5 AL
smc PENTAX-FA645 Zoom 45mm-85mm F4.5
Standard Zoom Lenses
smc PENTAX-FA 645 Zoom 55mm-110mm F5.6
Telephoto Zoom Lenses
smc PENTAX-FA645 Zoom 80mm-160mm F4.5
smc PENTAX-FA645 Zoom 150mm-300mm F5.6 ED [IF]
Wide-Angle Lenses
smc PENTAX-FA645 35mm F3.5 AL [IF]
smc PENTAX-FA645 45mm F2.8
Standard Lenses
smc PENTAX-FA645 75mm F2.8
Telephoto Lenses
smc PENTAX-FA645 150mm F2.8 [IF]
smc PENTAX-FA645 200mm F4 [IF]
smc PENTAX-FA645 300mm F4 ED [IF]
smc PENTAX-FA645 300mm F5.6 ED [IF]
smc PENTAX-FA645 400mm F5.6 ED [IF]
smc PENTAX-A645 600mm F5.6 ED [IF]
Macro Lenses
smc PENTAX-FA645 Macro 120mm F4
Special-Application Lenses
smc PENTAX 645 LS 75mm F2.8
smc PENTAX 645 LS 135mm F4
Rear Converter Lenses
Rear Converter-A 6451.4X
Rear Converter-A 645 2X
QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
1.1 fps speed <<< obviously this is not for action type photography
movie mode <<< this is not a video camera either.

what I found out is I seldom use movie mode and prefer still photos. I have only used the movie mode about 1%-2% of the time. and would rather carry a small pocket sized HD recorder.

it is funny how people underestimate CCD technology for being old, yet it still is the king in DR as proven by present day cameras. the Fuji S5pro for example is an old camera, yet it still can't be toppled by newer CMOS sensor in that department.
I haven't upgrade to k20 or K7 yet - I like my CCD K10D at low ISO (and the K-7 will be under $750 soon )

Last edited by monochrome; 03-11-2010 at 01:48 PM.
03-11-2010, 04:47 PM   #59
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I wanted to throw in my two bits worth.

I wanted to throw in my two bits worth, but decided I didn't really have anything to say! That is because it really means nothing anyway.
03-11-2010, 05:02 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
And so it begins. First the measurebators find some minutae and turn it into a fatal flaw, and then the apologists come out of the woodwork.
It's a very strange world.
And Wheatfield manages to disparage both of them
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