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03-11-2010, 06:27 PM   #61
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About the 16 vs. 14 Bit debate:

14 Bit are more than enough. As has been said, 16 Bits are overkill (if delivered at all).

I explained it in detail here:
-> https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/949156-post586.html

In order to give a correct answer one must study the specific data of the sensor chip. What I did for the 645D. Some of the answers in this thread have been too simplistic.

03-11-2010, 06:41 PM   #62
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Nice camera.

Can we get back to predicting what the new K8 will have and whether it will be full frame?
03-11-2010, 09:01 PM   #63
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k8 will be full frame (6x7), not this weak medium format :P
03-11-2010, 09:55 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by RuiC Quote
That's wrong. The 3 basic colour cell red blue and green are used to make up ONE colour, not 3. Each colour is calculated from the sum of the 3 basic ones. So ONE and EACH colour is made from: C=(R+B+G) So it will make (2^14)^1 not ^3
Yes, but the Bayer pattern has two green, one blue and one red. The double green is to mimic the yellow-green sensitivity of the human eye. So your formula should have (R + G + G + B) as the base input.

03-11-2010, 10:11 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by WerTicus Quote
k8 will be full frame (6x7), not this weak medium format :P
you must be kidding, right?
03-11-2010, 10:34 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by WerTicus Quote
k8 will be full frame (6x7), not this weak medium format :P
QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
you must be kidding, right?
If someone created a full size 6x7 sensor....how big would that raw be?
03-12-2010, 01:22 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
you must be kidding, right?
Probably never used a medium format camera before...
03-12-2010, 02:58 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Canada_Rockies Quote
Yes, but the Bayer pattern has two green, one blue and one red. The double green is to mimic the yellow-green sensitivity of the human eye. So your formula should have (R + G + G + B) as the base input.
RuiC missed the point and your remark isn't any better (No pun intended).

The real calculus is in my post (7 posts up).

What RuiC and you are addressing are the number of colors which would be computable from a 14 Bit sensor input. Because of the complexity of the Bayer demosaicing algorithm and assuming unsigned short arithmetic, this is 48 Bits exactly (281 trillion). Because of the large color noise of course, a huge part of this 48 Bit space would be noise only. But not zero.

If you ask for numbers of noise free colors, then an upper number is 11.5 bits in the luminance channel and maybe 9.25 bits in the chrominance channels or 30 bits (1 billion colors). The real number is much smaller though, because the brighter colors have more (photon shot) noise. To compute the correct figure is difficult and the result is much less than 1 billion.


Last edited by falconeye; 03-12-2010 at 03:09 AM.
03-12-2010, 03:26 AM   #69
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Getting away from all this...maths, I think Pentax will definitely lose out to the competition if they don't roll this camera out worldwide.

They've got people who probably wouldn't have given Pentax a thought drooling over it, from all corners of the globe, and the only thing Pentax has given them is an "Eh, maybe."

Yes, in the film age, it was a lot harder to sell MF cameras, as they were a bit more of a pain to own and operate than 35mm. Film was harder to find, harder to get processed, you got less shots...etc, etc.

Now, with digital, the only difference between this and the K-7 is the sensor size and the lens mount, and that's it. It's no more difficult to own and operate than a K-7. You don't have to use different film with fiddlier loading, don't have to own a bigger enlarger.

To not roll this out globally within a year - or at most, 18 months - would be to miss an insanely huge opportunity. Pentax is worried, though, about having to upgrade their infrastructure. That'd be a good thing to do, anyway, and the markets which would open up because of it would probably more than compensate. A full-on, global pro network would be even better.
03-12-2010, 04:01 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
To not roll this out globally within a year - or at most, 18 months - would be to miss an insanely huge opportunity.
I agree 100%.

The main argument against large sensor (the expensive process) has gone away and the second argument (the expensive sensor) will go away soon. Pentax can ride on top of a new wave coming.

But this isn't the thread to discuss it (there is the main thread). This thread was to either laugh about 16 Bit or do ridiculous math
03-12-2010, 05:11 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
Getting away from all this...maths, I think Pentax will definitely lose out to the competition if they don't roll this camera out worldwide.

They've got people who probably wouldn't have given Pentax a thought drooling over it, from all corners of the globe, and the only thing Pentax has given them is an "Eh, maybe."

Yes, in the film age, it was a lot harder to sell MF cameras, as they were a bit more of a pain to own and operate than 35mm. Film was harder to find, harder to get processed, you got less shots...etc, etc.

Now, with digital, the only difference between this and the K-7 is the sensor size and the lens mount, and that's it. It's no more difficult to own and operate than a K-7. You don't have to use different film with fiddlier loading, don't have to own a bigger enlarger.

To not roll this out globally within a year - or at most, 18 months - would be to miss an insanely huge opportunity. Pentax is worried, though, about having to upgrade their infrastructure. That'd be a good thing to do, anyway, and the markets which would open up because of it would probably more than compensate. A full-on, global pro network would be even better.
The level of support that pro users of MF are expecting is in complete different league than the level of support that mass market DSLR user are willing to accept.

Putting in place support centers, training technicians takes time and money and the ressources able to do this are most likely doing this in Japan at the moment. In addition, if early issues are found on the camera, Pentax would screw up only one maket place among three. I don't think that Pentax is considering their Japanese users as beta users, but a failure of a specific component or a firmware is not to be excluded.

So delaying introduction on specific markets is not stupid IMO.
03-12-2010, 07:54 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
RuiC missed the point and your remark isn't any better (No pun intended).

The real calculus is in my post (7 posts up).

What RuiC and you are addressing are the number of colors which would be computable from a 14 Bit sensor input. Because of the complexity of the Bayer demosaicing algorithm and assuming unsigned short arithmetic, this is 48 Bits exactly (281 trillion). Because of the large color noise of course, a huge part of this 48 Bit space would be noise only. But not zero.

If you ask for numbers of noise free colors, then an upper number is 11.5 bits in the luminance channel and maybe 9.25 bits in the chrominance channels or 30 bits (1 billion colors). The real number is much smaller though, because the brighter colors have more (photon shot) noise. To compute the correct figure is difficult and the result is much less than 1 billion.
Thanks Falk and others. I admit it still confuses me. That was a nice answer.
Rui
03-12-2010, 09:27 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
Getting away from all this...maths, I think Pentax will definitely lose out to the competition if they don't roll this camera out worldwide.

They've got people who probably wouldn't have given Pentax a thought drooling over it, from all corners of the globe, and the only thing Pentax has given them is an "Eh, maybe."

Yes, in the film age, it was a lot harder to sell MF cameras, as they were a bit more of a pain to own and operate than 35mm. Film was harder to find, harder to get processed, you got less shots...etc, etc.

Now, with digital, the only difference between this and the K-7 is the sensor size and the lens mount, and that's it. It's no more difficult to own and operate than a K-7. You don't have to use different film with fiddlier loading, don't have to own a bigger enlarger.

To not roll this out globally within a year - or at most, 18 months - would be to miss an insanely huge opportunity. Pentax is worried, though, about having to upgrade their infrastructure. That'd be a good thing to do, anyway, and the markets which would open up because of it would probably more than compensate. A full-on, global pro network would be even better.
Here in Canada anyways medium format film was not harder to get and harder to find a place to process. 120 and 620 were everywhere. processing was and still is common place in labs not department stores and most enlargers went up to at least 6X6. I hardly think that anyone willing to put up with the greater expense, size and computing demands that the 645D was some one who could not or would not be able to load a TLR which were sold in the tonnes (and you can still get Seagulls brand new). I do not think you are giving people the credit they sometimes deserve. Those who chose Instamatics in the film days are the same ones as complain the Kx is too big and heavy. Medium format film IMHO was easier to load then the older manual loading 35mm cameras. I would guess the price tag is going to be the biggest hurdle now plus it is certainly not the best camera for the vast majority of the population and never will.

I do agree that Pentax needs to expand outside of the Japanese market but I think two days is too little time to expect it

Car manufactures did the same thing; Smart Cars were sold in Europe before Canada and in Canada for two years before entering the US market and at least one Korean manufacturer sold here for at least two years before the American market. I suspect that at different times the 645D will enter North America, Australia/New Zealand,Europe and the rest of Asia plus the rest of the world. I have no guess at the order.

The 645D will, as others stated, need better professional support which does not grow overnight. Plus pros often buy locally when they can due to the ease of accessing the support such as a loaner while theirs is down, try out of lens, access to other distributor support systems as opposed to mail order to save $20 which is more important to the amateur. And many of these pro dealers do not presently sell Pentax and this support network needs to be expanded. And sales personal trained and perhaps rental opportunites expanded as well. I am sure that Pentax wants to sell as many units as possible but to do it right which means in increments. Patience in the digital age seems to be much more dificult to find then is film in almost any format
03-12-2010, 10:31 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
I do agree that Pentax needs to expand outside of the Japanese market but I think two days is too little time to expect it

I suspect that at different times the 645D will enter North America, Australia/New Zealand,Europe and the rest of Asia plus the rest of the world. I have no guess at the order.
Read on the main thread (Ogl reply) the rollout plan is Japan, mid-May; EU, summer; rest-of-world, later.

[EDIT:] Correction: Post by Kunzite on the SUPRISE thread (CP+ images post).

Kunzite says Japan release May, EU July.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-12-2010 at 04:02 PM.
03-12-2010, 10:34 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Read on the main thread (Ogl reply) the rollout plan is Japan, mid-May; EU, summer; rest-of-world, later.
Thanks, I guess I missed that
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