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03-20-2010, 10:21 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
One angle of attack Pentax could pull off successfully would be to make a FF dSLR with a viewfinder that is in the class of the old manual focus film SLR viewfinders, i.e., 95% magnification instead of 72 or 76%. That would set it apart (and above) Canon and Nikon competitors without being a difficult hurdle, since they've done it before. This would also serve to play up the extensive backward compatibility of the K Mount, making the camera more enjoyable with manual focus lenses than Nikon (Canon doesn't even compete on this one!). It would coincidentally make Pentax's FF dSLR the most enjoyable dSLR to use with those beautifully crafted Voigtlander and Zeiss manual focus lenses.
You're right. I have a 58mm Voigtlander that I love and I have intentions of eventually getting some Zeiss lenses. The 58 mm with the crop factor is too much lens in some situations and I think it would be great to make full use of it on a FF body. They already have a decent selection of primes for 35mm on the market and the most obvious step into FF would be to develop a nice selection of zooms initially.

03-21-2010, 02:40 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by FunkyMonk Quote
You're right. I have a 58mm Voigtlander that I love and I have intentions of eventually getting some Zeiss lenses. The 58 mm with the crop factor is too much lens in some situations and I think it would be great to make full use of it on a FF body. They already have a decent selection of primes for 35mm on the market and the most obvious step into FF would be to develop a nice selection of zooms initially.
If the 60-250 works on FF then they'll only need a 24-75/2.8.

The FA 31/43/77 and 50 and 100 macro lenses would be the FF prime collection.

It would be sufficient for existing Pentax users who are interested in FF.

I'd buy the FF with 24-75 kit if its around 2500 euros.
03-21-2010, 09:51 AM   #63
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Actually, I forgot about the Voigtlander and Zeiss lenses as respects Canon; they could be used on a Canon body - but Canon's own manual focus glass can't. It'd be a much more limited application for them than for Pentax and Nikon, though.
03-21-2010, 10:43 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
One angle of attack Pentax could pull off successfully would be to make a FF dSLR with a viewfinder that is in the class of the old manual focus film SLR viewfinders, i.e., 95% magnification instead of 72 or 76%. That would set it apart (and above) Canon and Nikon competitors without being a difficult hurdle, since they've done it before. This would also serve to play up the extensive backward compatibility of the K Mount, making the camera more enjoyable with manual focus lenses than Nikon (Canon doesn't even compete on this one!). It would coincidentally make Pentax's FF dSLR the most enjoyable dSLR to use with those beautifully crafted Voigtlander and Zeiss manual focus lenses.
Yeah, as long as they use a proper, uncrippled K-mount.

03-22-2010, 02:18 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
One angle of attack Pentax could pull off successfully would be to make a FF dSLR with a viewfinder that is in the class of the old manual focus film SLR viewfinders, i.e., 95% magnification instead of 72 or 76%. That would set it apart (and above) Canon and Nikon competitors without being a difficult hurdle, since they've done it before.
Are you sure they have they done it before? Of course in the old MF bodies, but which AF body offers that much magnification?
03-22-2010, 02:50 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
Yeah, as long as they use a proper, uncrippled K-mount.
Even then, A lenses work perfectly. I agree full Kmount would be a big plus although, IMO, this is dream only and should not be expected.
03-22-2010, 06:31 AM   #67
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Full Frame?

How's that working out for Sony? Would a Pentax FF impact the market any differently?

Sony, remember, broke the FF $2k barrier with the A850, yet I never see the camera on Amazon's top 25. The A850 is nearly everything you want in a Pentax FF dSLR - weathersealed, in body IS, and a big, beautiful viewfinder, yet it barely even gets a mention in this forum. Canikon's topline APS-C bodies get much more ink and pixels here and on the interwebs than Sony's alleged market-changer.

Sony's probably got a better distribution network (read, retail presence) than Pentax does. And a bigger war chest. And more marketing dollars. And better brand recognition, particularly among younger photographers that were in diapers during Pentax's halcyon days.

So where can Pentax make a splash where Sony's barely made a ripple?

If Pentax releases a FF, I don't think any Canikon owner that's got any kind of investment in Canikon glass would switch to Pentax unless it was significantly cheaper than current FF options. Like seriously cheap. So someone who's got an entry-level Canikon with the kit lens and is thinking about the next step up (7D, D300) would have to look hard at the Pentax FF before taking the default upgrade path within the brand. And many in this group actually appreciate the 1.5/1.6 crop factor of APS-C, so Pentax has to be out the gate with Limited/DA*/L quality long glass to make up for the lost crop factor. While older formulas and used glass may appeal to some, new glass will be a requirement for many. That's a tall order for a company accustomed to launching 2-3 new lenses a year.

Look at the K7 as an example - $400+ cheaper than it's Canikon competitors; did it entice enough platform switchers? Are there a lot of posts here of the variety "I owned a D80/Rebel and just bought the K7"???

For a Pentax FF to really change the game, it's got to be mad-cheap, say $1200, while the K7 continues to descend into $700-800 territory. Is it possible? I've read that FF sensors are up to 5x more expensive than APS-C because of the lower yield.

If Pentax releases a FF, and it's above $1200, it will appeal primarily to existing Pentax owners. So it might help stem defections, which is important, but it's not going to expand market share, which I daresay is the critical thing right now...

My $.02, non-refundable.
03-22-2010, 07:01 AM   #68
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SONY's problem is...

SONY's problem is...

Everyone's owned a broken Sony product.

Many have experienced SONY's disposable product customer service.

When a Sony item breaks, toss it in the trash and buy another.

If a850 and a900 came with a 3 or 4 year factory warranty then they'd sell & sell & ....
But Sony isn't set up to do repairs, instead they just make and sell new products to replace their broken ones

I've read secondhand, used a850 & a900 lack eager buyers, seems no one wants to buy a "used" Sony full frame dslr.

If Canon's 5D mark II replacement or Nikon's D700 replacement starts at $1999....

I'll guess they'll be in TOP TEN in 2010, 2011...

03-22-2010, 08:04 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve Beswick Quote
Pentax could actually spend money on advertising. That would be an interesting move.
Forget dumping money on advertising, spend it on a FF DSLR and anyone with half a brain will know about it in the internet age.
03-22-2010, 08:20 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
Forget dumping money on advertising, spend it on a FF DSLR and anyone with half a brain will know about it in the internet age.
People with half a brain is just a small part of the overall market though!

03-22-2010, 08:48 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
SONY's problem is...

Everyone's owned a broken Sony product.

Many have experienced SONY's disposable product customer service.

When a Sony item breaks, toss it in the trash and buy another.

If a850 and a900 came with a 3 or 4 year factory warranty then they'd sell & sell & ....
But Sony isn't set up to do repairs, instead they just make and sell new products to replace their broken ones

I've read secondhand, used a850 & a900 lack eager buyers, seems no one wants to buy a "used" Sony full frame dslr.

If Canon's 5D mark II replacement or Nikon's D700 replacement starts at $1999....

I'll guess they'll be in TOP TEN in 2010, 2011...
The 5DII and D700 are both at ~$2400. That's pretty close to $1,999 - just a single lens away from your magic pricepoint. They are selling well, but Amazon's Top 25 is dominated by APS-C. A $1,999 Canikon FF will sell for sure, but the success will have as much to do with the fact that it is Canikon than the fact that it's FF. You've got to hand it to Canikon, they've got the system lock-in and upgrade formula down to a science.

While Sony may have dropped a notch in the eyes of the technoscenti, they still have a good brand reputation among the public at large. Read posts here and on other camera sites - do you think Pentax's reputation is any better? Here are the common themes:

"Who?"
"Aren't they going out of business?"
"Who?"
"Their AF is slow"
"Their AF motors die"
"I can't find them anywhere"
"They don't have L glass"
"They have slow glass"

Do you really think a FF camera is going to make those concerns go away? I'm not saying that they are valid concerns, just that they are out there and would be common barriers to purchase. Pentax owners can separate the wheat from the BS, and will be the only buyers of a $1999 Pentax FF. Is that enough to warrant the investment from Hoya? At this point, I'd say no, and predict that we'll see FF from Pentax in 2011/2012, when they can bring the pricepoint to $1300 or so, and thus provide a FF upgrade path to Pentax K-x/K7 users that are ready for the next step.

I've been really impressed with Pentax's strategy of late. The K-x is a great camera and is aimed at a part of the market where brand loyalty/system investment doesn't count for much yet. The 645D looks like it will be a great camera as well and showcases the Pentax brand among a group of users that understand the legacy and positive attributes of the brand.
03-22-2010, 09:42 AM   #72
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Well something keeps people from buying into Sony Dslrs

Well something keeps people from buying into Sony Dslrs and Carl Zeiss glass has such great respect. Their 16-35mm f2.8 is supposed to be "best in class" and on Sony Full Frame 's inbody shake reduction Sony offers something no one else offers. Yet people don't buy into Sony...


As far as the hour on the hour and ever changing Amazon Top 100 goes,

Amazon.com Camera & Photo Bestsellers: The most popular items on Amazon.com. Updated hourly.

D700 #14

5D Mark II #25

Both cameras are over 18 months old and still routinely score in top 25 at amazon

Neither started out at $1,999

D700 was $2999 in USA
5D Mark II was $2699 in USA

K-x way is up... to #24 now. K-x was stuck in the #40's for a while

I say if canon or nikon offer a full frame that launches at $1999, the tidalwave of free press will swamp the Canikon with orders.

But its just my opinion, I own three full frame dslrs and on average I paid less than $2,000 new.

I bought into Pentax digital when 5D classic still sat at $3299. Years later I paid $1,750 brand new when 5D classic dropped off the system some 40 months after its launch.


edit edit

Last edited by Samsungian; 03-22-2010 at 09:49 AM.
03-22-2010, 11:27 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Well something keeps people from buying into Sony Dslrs and Carl Zeiss glass has such great respect. Their 16-35mm f2.8 is supposed to be "best in class" and on Sony Full Frame 's inbody shake reduction Sony offers something no one else offers. Yet people don't buy into Sony...
For most Canikon shooters I suspect it's because by the time they are ready to consider FF, they've already invested thousands in glass for their respective mount. They are, for all practical intent, locked into their system. Sure, from time to time other brands may have a small advantage in one area or another, but those are temporary and their brand eventually catches up.

This group - and I'd hazard a guess that they are the largest group of shooters considering FF - aren't likely to switch to Sony just to save $400 on a FF body. Their switching costs are way too high.

A Pentax FF at the current $2k pricepoint will suffer a similar fate.
03-22-2010, 08:47 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
For most Canikon shooters I suspect it's because by the time they are ready to consider FF, they've already invested thousands in glass for their respective mount. They are, for all practical intent, locked into their system. Sure, from time to time other brands may have a small advantage in one area or another, but those are temporary and their brand eventually catches up.

This group - and I'd hazard a guess that they are the largest group of shooters considering FF - aren't likely to switch to Sony just to save $400 on a FF body. Their switching costs are way too high.

A Pentax FF at the current $2k pricepoint will suffer a similar fate.
No, because the one thing you're forgetting is that Sony is stuck with the Minolta autofocus mount. There's not a whole lot of high-end autofocus glass in Minolta mount; most available stuff (in the case of zooms) is slow, variable aperture, plasticky consumer-grade stuff. Minolta, like Canon, abandoned their manual focus customers when they came out with autofocus gear. UNLIKE Canon, they didn't produce and market high-end stuff and become a dominant player in the post autofocus SLR market. There's a LOT more PK mount glass out there (given BOTH manual AND autofocus PK mount lenses will work) than there is Minolta AF glass. That's one reason why Sony's FF dSLRs aren't selling all that well. The other reason is they didn't do such a great job on their FF sensors in terms of noise control.

Pentax needs to stop the bleeding (of high end customers). If they don't get a FF dSLR into the market soon, nobody will care how terrific an APS-C dSLR they make, because they'll have lost what's left of their market share to Canon and Nikon (maybe a few to Sony). High end products are the profitable ones; entry level stuff earns profit on volume, and Pentax will never keep up on that basis with Canon and Nikon (not to mention Sony), who can just keep bombarding them with new product. If Pentax is going to be successful , they will need to expand their appeal, and that means a FF dSLR.
03-23-2010, 02:34 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
Pentax needs to stop the bleeding (of high end customers). If they don't get a FF dSLR into the market soon, nobody will care how terrific an APS-C dSLR they make, because they'll have lost what's left of their market share to Canon and Nikon (maybe a few to Sony).
The Pentax demographic are for the most part not high end customers (whatever that means). Don't you know Pentax users are cheap, that's why we're a penny pinching bunch who whine a lot but are pleased as punch when getting old junk lenses because we don't have the deep pockets to buy new glass. They lament of Pentax's supposed shortcomings but when push comes to shove will still stick with Pentax because the "best bang for the buck" argument prevails, or perhaps because their pockets are half empty and their bank accounts are overdrawn. Ask yourself first if you're prepared to consider upgrading to the K-7 which is now pretty cheap, then ask yourself if you're willing to fork out extra to go the Canikon route. The majority of high end customers have already switched to Canikon a long time ago if you didn't already know.

QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
High end products are the profitable ones; entry level stuff earns profit on volume, and Pentax will never keep up on that basis with Canon and Nikon (not to mention Sony), who can just keep bombarding them with new product. If Pentax is going to be successful , they will need to expand their appeal, and that means a FF dSLR.
Sorry but I'm just not sure you know what you're talking about. High end products may have a high margin but invariably there just isn't enough volume to provide enough return of investment or sustainable profit. The success of the entry level K-x has reinvigorated the company and it's financial bottomline. Canon made a killing with the EOS 300/350 as did Nikon with the D70/D70s. The APS-C segment is where the money is, not FF. Most Pentax FF aspirants can talk a lot but the reality is most just don't have the means to buy one even if Pentax launched a 35mm FF tomorrow. Pentax users with money looking for FF have already jumped ship.

Last edited by creampuff; 03-23-2010 at 02:39 AM.
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