Pentax to join the micro4/3 standard?

gazonk · 05-11-2010, 05:52 AM

Originally posted by thibs

The camera is nice but with such big lenses, what's the point ?

The pancake is cute. But a 16mm only? I like that focal length, but for walk-around one-lens usage, surely a lens in the 20-35 mm range is much more useful.

pxpaulx · 05-11-2010, 07:00 AM

Originally posted by gazonk

The pancake is cute. But a 16mm only? I like that focal length, but for walk-around one-lens usage, surely a lens in the 20-35 mm range is much more useful.

I am sure longer pancakes are in the works - if there is anything Pentax users have learned, its that pancakes come in 3's, right!? The best logic I can come up with for the wide angle pancake first, is that m4/3 doesn't have one yet (panasonic has an upcoming 14mm, but that is 28mm equivalent, still not as wide as the new sony 16mm).

nosnoop · 05-11-2010, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by thibs

Nice and all, but very "niche" IMO.

Oh, no. This is the future you are looking at. Entry and mid level DSLR will be replaced by camera similar to this one.

Even though it may not be "pocketable", but it will sit nicely in a small waist bag; and a lot more convenient than a DSLR. The use of retractable lenses in the future would further reduce the carry dimension.

**Pål Jensen** · 05-11-2010, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by nosnoop

Oh, no. This is the future you are looking at. Entry and mid level DSLR will be replaced by camera similar to this one.

Even though it may not be "pocketable", but it will sit nicely in a small waist bag; and a lot more convenient than a DSLR. The use of retractable lenses in the future would further reduce the carry dimension.

No way. These cameras will replace P&S's. Then the buyers figure out that they really only want one lens anyway so their next camera will be a P&S. Cameras without an optical viewfinder will never be a first choice for serious use.

pxpaulx · 05-11-2010, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

No way. These cameras will replace P&S's. Then the buyers figure out that they really only want one lens anyway so their next camera will be a P&S. Cameras without an optical viewfinder will never be a first choice for serious use.

Aren't cell phones pretty much replacing the 'everyday' P&S? these large sensor compacts will shortly replace cameras for people who don't want an slr, but want something better than their cell phones. They definitely are not a niche product, and this sony will do well even up against m4/3. While m4/3 sits squarely between p&s and dslr, this sony line is clearly aimed directly at p&s camera users.

thibs · 05-11-2010, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by pxpaulx

Aren't cell phones pretty much replacing the 'everyday' P&S? these large sensor compacts will shortly replace cameras for people who don't want an slr, but want something better than their cell phones. They definitely are not a niche product, and this sony will do well even up against m4/3. While m4/3 sits squarely between p&s and dslr, this sony line is clearly aimed directly at p&s camera users.

Well not for what I saw. My students (about 18 and really not socially eased *at all*) are crying their phone pictures are so crap, they ditch the phone and go buy a P&S because it is so much better...
/me this is ironic, isn't it?

nosnoop · 05-11-2010, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by thibs

Well not for what I saw. My students (about 18 and really not socially eased *at all*) are crying their phone pictures are so crap, they ditch the phone and go buy a P&S because it is so much better...

There are excellent P&S, and there are some really crappy ones.
The same applies for phone, though majority of low end phone built-in cameras are crappy ones. OTOH, there are some excellent ones too, and could be better than some cheaper P&S.

nosnoop · 05-11-2010, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Cameras without an optical viewfinder will never be a first choice for serious use.

That's why I said entry and mid level DSLR. The pro and advanced level DSLRs would continue to exist for "serious" use. But entry level DSLR market segment would probably disappear once Canon and Nikon join the party; and EVIL/SLD would continue to erode DSLR sales in big chunks as it evolves and improves.

**Pål Jensen** · 05-11-2010, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by pxpaulx

Aren't cell phones pretty much replacing the 'everyday' P&S? these large sensor compacts will shortly replace cameras for people who don't want an slr, but want something better than their cell phones. .

These people are already buying P&S and will continue to do so. Who wants to buy a tiny camera without a finder with many lenses? Most buyers will buy only one lens and find that the interchangeable lenses is for them a gimmick. Those who want to use a fleet of lenses are still better served with a DSLR.

**Pål Jensen** · 05-11-2010, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by nosnoop

That's why I said entry and mid level DSLR. The pro and advanced level DSLRs would continue to exist for "serious" use. But entry level DSLR market segment would probably disappear once Canon and Nikon join the party; and EVIL/SLD would continue to erode DSLR sales in big chunks as it evolves and improves.

That, I think, is a mistaken assumption. Most consumers buy entry level DSLR because they are seen as "real" cameras, not because they need them or even know how to use them properly. DSLR's will still be the real camera and the rest the gadgets.

Urkeldaedalus · 05-11-2010, 02:56 PM

I'm not sure if EVILs will eliminate the P&S market entirely, but I think they may have the beneficial effect of pushing the price of high level P&S cameras down to be more reasonable. It would nice if someone would do much cheaper version of the Leica X1, for example. If it performed like these new Sony cameras do at high ISOs, I'd buy it in a second.

nosnoop · 05-11-2010, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

That, I think, is a mistaken assumption. Most consumers buy entry level DSLR because they are seen as "real" cameras.... DSLR's will still be the real camera and the rest the gadgets.

We will see in the next couple of years whether your assumption or mine is correct.
Entry level DSLR buyers were attracted by the improved IQ, expandability, and quick response; but most of them hate the bulk, and many still cannot get used to the optical viewfinder. And when they can get hold of the minuscule EVIL/SLD cameras, and see how well the AF works in HD movies, they would be sold. Obviously, these are 1st generation EVIL and many things need to be improved to match DSLR, particularly AF speed, and live view (VF or LCD display). But as it evolves, most entry buyer would go for it, and they would prefer an excellent still/HD movie capture device to a "real" camera.

dnas · 05-11-2010, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by nosnoop

That's why I said entry and mid level DSLR. The pro and advanced level DSLRs would continue to exist for "serious" use. But entry level DSLR market segment would probably disappear once Canon and Nikon join the party; and EVIL/SLD would continue to erode DSLR sales in big chunks as it evolves and improves.

I agree!!

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

That, I think, is a mistaken assumption. Most consumers buy entry level DSLR because they are seen as "real" cameras, not because they need them or even know how to use them properly. DSLR's will still be the real camera and the rest the gadgets.

So by this thinking, the basic SLR design with a mirror box that is already more than 50 years old will continue on into the future dominatiing the non P&S market for the next 50 years??

It was only 10 years ago that many film SLR users said that DSLRs would never replace/outsell film SLRs, and it happened in less than 5 years. Now MOST Pros use a DSLR.

Mirrorless interchangeable cameras with EVF are just 1.5 years old. And the EVF on the Panasonic G1 is STILL the benchmark. It is big, sharp, high resolution, and surprisingly good. It is not perfect, but it's only the first generation.

I think that these types of cameras will replace low end DSLRs within 5 years. And in that time, there will also be HIGH END ones as well, with state of the art EVF.

**Pål Jensen** · 05-11-2010, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by dnas

So by this thinking, the basic SLR design with a mirror box that is already more than 50 years old will continue on into the future dominatiing the non P&S market for the next 50 years??.

Nothing is more certain than that. Optical viewfinders cannot be beaten. They are the real thing. Just like we will continue to have optical binoculars and windows instead of LCD panels. Removing a feature is not a plus; it is a minus. Optical viewfinder can be augmented with electronic ones in every way imaginable.

mattdm · 05-11-2010, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Nothing is more certain than that. Optical viewfinders cannot be beaten. They are the real thing. Just like we will continue to have optical binoculars and windows instead of LCD panels. Removing a feature is not a plus; it is a minus. Optical viewfinder can be augmented with electronic ones in every way imaginable.

Tag this one to look back on in ten years, is all I'm sayin'.

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05-11-2010, 05:52 AM	#256
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by thibs The camera is nice but with such big lenses, what's the point ? The pancake is cute. But a 16mm only? I like that focal length, but for walk-around one-lens usage, surely a lens in the 20-35 mm range is much more useful.

05-11-2010, 07:00 AM	#257
pxpaulx Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 2,867	Originally posted by gazonk The pancake is cute. But a 16mm only? I like that focal length, but for walk-around one-lens usage, surely a lens in the 20-35 mm range is much more useful. I am sure longer pancakes are in the works - if there is anything Pentax users have learned, its that pancakes come in 3's, right!? The best logic I can come up with for the wide angle pancake first, is that m4/3 doesn't have one yet (panasonic has an upcoming 14mm, but that is 28mm equivalent, still not as wide as the new sony 16mm).

05-11-2010, 11:03 AM	#258
nosnoop Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,299	Originally posted by thibs Nice and all, but very "niche" IMO. Oh, no. This is the future you are looking at. Entry and mid level DSLR will be replaced by camera similar to this one. Even though it may not be "pocketable", but it will sit nicely in a small waist bag; and a lot more convenient than a DSLR. The use of retractable lenses in the future would further reduce the carry dimension.

05-11-2010, 11:14 AM	#259
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by nosnoop Oh, no. This is the future you are looking at. Entry and mid level DSLR will be replaced by camera similar to this one. Even though it may not be "pocketable", but it will sit nicely in a small waist bag; and a lot more convenient than a DSLR. The use of retractable lenses in the future would further reduce the carry dimension. No way. These cameras will replace P&S's. Then the buyers figure out that they really only want one lens anyway so their next camera will be a P&S. Cameras without an optical viewfinder will never be a first choice for serious use.

05-11-2010, 12:13 PM	#260
pxpaulx Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 2,867	Originally posted by Pål Jensen No way. These cameras will replace P&S's. Then the buyers figure out that they really only want one lens anyway so their next camera will be a P&S. Cameras without an optical viewfinder will never be a first choice for serious use. Aren't cell phones pretty much replacing the 'everyday' P&S? these large sensor compacts will shortly replace cameras for people who don't want an slr, but want something better than their cell phones. They definitely are not a niche product, and this sony will do well even up against m4/3. While m4/3 sits squarely between p&s and dslr, this sony line is clearly aimed directly at p&s camera users.

05-11-2010, 12:45 PM	#261
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by pxpaulx Aren't cell phones pretty much replacing the 'everyday' P&S? these large sensor compacts will shortly replace cameras for people who don't want an slr, but want something better than their cell phones. They definitely are not a niche product, and this sony will do well even up against m4/3. While m4/3 sits squarely between p&s and dslr, this sony line is clearly aimed directly at p&s camera users. Well not for what I saw. My students (about 18 and really not socially eased at all) are crying their phone pictures are so crap, they ditch the phone and go buy a P&S because it is so much better... /me this is ironic, isn't it?

05-11-2010, 02:25 PM	#262
nosnoop Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,299	Originally posted by thibs Well not for what I saw. My students (about 18 and really not socially eased at all) are crying their phone pictures are so crap, they ditch the phone and go buy a P&S because it is so much better... There are excellent P&S, and there are some really crappy ones. The same applies for phone, though majority of low end phone built-in cameras are crappy ones. OTOH, there are some excellent ones too, and could be better than some cheaper P&S.

05-11-2010, 02:28 PM	#263
nosnoop Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,299	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Cameras without an optical viewfinder will never be a first choice for serious use. That's why I said entry and mid level DSLR. The pro and advanced level DSLRs would continue to exist for "serious" use. But entry level DSLR market segment would probably disappear once Canon and Nikon join the party; and EVIL/SLD would continue to erode DSLR sales in big chunks as it evolves and improves.

05-11-2010, 02:42 PM	#264
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by pxpaulx Aren't cell phones pretty much replacing the 'everyday' P&S? these large sensor compacts will shortly replace cameras for people who don't want an slr, but want something better than their cell phones. . These people are already buying P&S and will continue to do so. Who wants to buy a tiny camera without a finder with many lenses? Most buyers will buy only one lens and find that the interchangeable lenses is for them a gimmick. Those who want to use a fleet of lenses are still better served with a DSLR.

05-11-2010, 02:45 PM	#265
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by nosnoop That's why I said entry and mid level DSLR. The pro and advanced level DSLRs would continue to exist for "serious" use. But entry level DSLR market segment would probably disappear once Canon and Nikon join the party; and EVIL/SLD would continue to erode DSLR sales in big chunks as it evolves and improves. That, I think, is a mistaken assumption. Most consumers buy entry level DSLR because they are seen as "real" cameras, not because they need them or even know how to use them properly. DSLR's will still be the real camera and the rest the gadgets.

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05-11-2010, 02:56 PM	#266
Urkeldaedalus Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Iowa Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,369	I'm not sure if EVILs will eliminate the P&S market entirely, but I think they may have the beneficial effect of pushing the price of high level P&S cameras down to be more reasonable. It would nice if someone would do much cheaper version of the Leica X1, for example. If it performed like these new Sony cameras do at high ISOs, I'd buy it in a second.

05-11-2010, 03:13 PM	#267
nosnoop Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,299	Originally posted by Pål Jensen That, I think, is a mistaken assumption. Most consumers buy entry level DSLR because they are seen as "real" cameras.... DSLR's will still be the real camera and the rest the gadgets. We will see in the next couple of years whether your assumption or mine is correct. Entry level DSLR buyers were attracted by the improved IQ, expandability, and quick response; but most of them hate the bulk, and many still cannot get used to the optical viewfinder. And when they can get hold of the minuscule EVIL/SLD cameras, and see how well the AF works in HD movies, they would be sold. Obviously, these are 1st generation EVIL and many things need to be improved to match DSLR, particularly AF speed, and live view (VF or LCD display). But as it evolves, most entry buyer would go for it, and they would prefer an excellent still/HD movie capture device to a "real" camera.

05-11-2010, 04:10 PM	#268
dnas Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Japan (Australian expat) Posts: 179	Originally posted by nosnoop That's why I said entry and mid level DSLR. The pro and advanced level DSLRs would continue to exist for "serious" use. But entry level DSLR market segment would probably disappear once Canon and Nikon join the party; and EVIL/SLD would continue to erode DSLR sales in big chunks as it evolves and improves. I agree!! Originally posted by Pål Jensen That, I think, is a mistaken assumption. Most consumers buy entry level DSLR because they are seen as "real" cameras, not because they need them or even know how to use them properly. DSLR's will still be the real camera and the rest the gadgets. So by this thinking, the basic SLR design with a mirror box that is already more than 50 years old will continue on into the future dominatiing the non P&S market for the next 50 years?? It was only 10 years ago that many film SLR users said that DSLRs would never replace/outsell film SLRs, and it happened in less than 5 years. Now MOST Pros use a DSLR. Mirrorless interchangeable cameras with EVF are just 1.5 years old. And the EVF on the Panasonic G1 is STILL the benchmark. It is big, sharp, high resolution, and surprisingly good. It is not perfect, but it's only the first generation. I think that these types of cameras will replace low end DSLRs within 5 years. And in that time, there will also be HIGH END ones as well, with state of the art EVF.

05-11-2010, 05:11 PM	#269
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by dnas So by this thinking, the basic SLR design with a mirror box that is already more than 50 years old will continue on into the future dominatiing the non P&S market for the next 50 years??. Nothing is more certain than that. Optical viewfinders cannot be beaten. They are the real thing. Just like we will continue to have optical binoculars and windows instead of LCD panels. Removing a feature is not a plus; it is a minus. Optical viewfinder can be augmented with electronic ones in every way imaginable.

05-11-2010, 05:50 PM	#270
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Nothing is more certain than that. Optical viewfinders cannot be beaten. They are the real thing. Just like we will continue to have optical binoculars and windows instead of LCD panels. Removing a feature is not a plus; it is a minus. Optical viewfinder can be augmented with electronic ones in every way imaginable. Tag this one to look back on in ten years, is all I'm sayin'.