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04-29-2010, 06:34 AM   #16
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7000 euros sound low (and it is!), but keep in mind that it may be excl VAT since it's for professionals.

04-29-2010, 07:26 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Japan preliminary demand for 645D ~ 5000 bodies.
It means European market will get ~ 1000 bodies from October till May, 2011.
If thats true, Pentax have sold 10 months production before the camera is released!
They better increase the production run...
04-29-2010, 07:58 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Would 7000 Euros be expensive for the 645D, relatively speaking?

What are some of it's European competitors prices like?
It is cheap.

But it is only a viable option, if there is a Pentax professional service, supporting photogs, if you get a full line of lenses, if Pentax provides some capable software to go with the camera - and I do not mean Silkypix. No professional will buy it, because it is 2500 Euros less than a Mamiya, if the other prerequisites are not there. I won't, if I don't have the pro support.

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04-29-2010, 09:18 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
It is cheap.

But it is only a viable option, if there is a Pentax professional service, supporting photogs, if you get a full line of lenses, if Pentax provides some capable software to go with the camera - and I do not mean Silkypix. No professional will buy it, because it is 2500 Euros less than a Mamiya, if the other prerequisites are not there. I won't, if I don't have the pro support.

Ben
Does the 645D need any more pro support than the 645 and 67 they have sold for over 40 years?

04-29-2010, 09:21 AM   #20
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I wonder what kind of PRO support does offer Mamiya. I mean, it's not Canon or Nikon with Pro stands (and free lenses to use) at Olympic Games...
04-29-2010, 10:42 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by eurostar Quote
I wonder what kind of PRO support does offer Mamiya. I mean, it's not Canon or Nikon with Pro stands (and free lenses to use) at Olympic Games...
Go into any PhaseOne dealership or to one of their national offices and you experience the Mamiya pro service: free training sesions, very good software support, technicians who come to your studio and help you to get your system running, reguilar visits by their sales staff, who also give hands on support. Any more?

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04-29-2010, 10:45 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Does the 645D need any more pro support than the 645 and 67 they have sold for over 40 years?
Digital camerras do indeed need much more support, because, bluntly put, you cannot produce a single image with just the camera, You need an imaging system and workflow, including software and computers etc. and that requires skills, which many pros do not have. I speak from experience as I work for a company that sells mainly to professional photogs. The established brands (mainly PhaseOne/Mamiya and Hasselblad) have an extensiove support system in place, that includes trained dealer staff, their sales and support teams etc.

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04-29-2010, 11:33 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
Go into any PhaseOne dealership or to one of their national offices and you experience the Mamiya pro service: free training sesions, very good software support, technicians who come to your studio and help you to get your system running, reguilar visits by their sales staff, who also give hands on support. Any more?

Ben

But the 645D isn't meant for studio shooting. It is an outdoor camera proved by its weather sealing.....

04-29-2010, 11:42 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
But the 645D isn't meant for studio shooting. It is an outdoor camera proved by its weather sealing.....
Where's the difference in support terms? It is still part of a production workflow. Photogs will need training, advice, additional information, technical specialsts at hand etc. - whatever they photograph. That is not a question of being in a studio or not.

Also, if Pentax seriously wants to earn money, the community of outdoor specialists who actually are willing to use medium format is extremely small. For wildlife that camera is too slow in every single respect (fps, AF, you name it) to compete with Canon and Nikon. Pure landscape photography is a very volatile business and supports only a very small number of photogs. And these often still use film for a lot of reasons. So Pentax also needs to address new user groups, like wedding or event photogs, where the 645 could be intersting due to its combination of small package, presumable high image quality and affordability. These new customers will also need evenmore support, because Pentax is long out of this kind of business.

If Pentax intends at all to sell that thing to a working pro, who needs to earn his living with it, they need to establish a strong support strategy and a support team. The camera is still only one part in the digital production workflow.

Ben

Last edited by Ben_Edict; 04-29-2010 at 11:48 AM.
04-29-2010, 12:03 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
If Pentax intends at all to sell that thing to a working pro, who needs to earn his living with it, they need to establish a strong support strategy and a support team. The camera is still only one part in the digital production workflow.
But Hoya has gone very far to explain that it is NOT for the working pro, but for the wealthy amateur. It's pointed up more than one time in the official press release for the camera. And if the production of ten months is already pre-sold in Japan, they nailed the niche.
04-29-2010, 01:21 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by eurostar Quote
But Hoya has gone very far to explain that it is NOT for the working pro, but for the wealthy amateur. It's pointed up more than one time in the official press release for the camera. And if the production of ten months is already pre-sold in Japan, they nailed the niche.
Leica was broke at least three times over the last two decades. They aimed at the wealthy amateur and they have a much higher brand reputation. This is not a viable option anymore, if it ever was.

Ben
04-29-2010, 06:33 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
Leica was broke at least three times over the last two decades. They aimed at the wealthy amateur and they have a much higher brand reputation. This is not a viable option anymore, if it ever was.

Ben
Leica is still broke, and beyond. It is subsidized as a hobby business by a camera nut who also happens to have multi-billion $$ industrial holdings and staggering family wealth. Without this benefactor, Leica would have been sold in the 1980's.
04-30-2010, 02:07 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
It is cheap.

But it is only a viable option, if there is a Pentax professional service, supporting photogs, if you get a full line of lenses, if Pentax provides some capable software to go with the camera - and I do not mean Silkypix. No professional will buy it, because it is 2500 Euros less than a Mamiya, if the other prerequisites are not there. I won't, if I don't have the pro support.

Ben
My understanding is that the Pentax 645D will around twice as cheap as the cheapest of the competition (body + back) Can you please which Mamiya solution you are refering to ?

Since Pentax is going the full DNG route, the best software to buddle the 645D with would be Lightroom like Leica. A very good second choice would be also DXO provided DXO push support for every 645 lens available. I have both softwares and I find DXO a superior raw converter but overall inferior because of its interface.

Now IMO, those softwares shouldn't be bundled with the 645D as it is very likely that the photographer owns already a licence for Photoshop CS, Lightroom and/or DXO. A rebate coupon would be smarter. Nikon don't provide a licence for Capture NX with their similarly priced D3X.

But I do agree that Pentax needs to have a very strong professional support available. But again, I'm not sure it is necessary to include it, maybe as an option to keep an attractive price for wealthy enthousiasts.
04-30-2010, 02:58 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
My understanding is that the Pentax 645D will around twice as cheap as the cheapest of the competition (body + back) Can you please which Mamiya solution you are refering to ?
Example: AC-Foto GmbH

That's 9000 Euros for the complete kit, including standard lens AND including 19% German VAT. So, Pentax, is not really that much cheaper! Yes, I know, it is the 22 MP back and not the 40 MP, Pentax claims, but it is a cheap start and with Mamiya you can exchange backs and upgrade them as required, wheras with Pentax you are bound to what you bought initially.

QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
Since Pentax is going the full DNG route, the best software to buddle the 645D with would be Lightroom like Leica. A very good second choice would be also DXO provided DXO push support for every 645 lens available. I have both softwares and I find DXO a superior raw converter but overall inferior because of its interface.

Now IMO, those softwares shouldn't be bundled with the 645D as it is very likely that the photographer owns already a licence for Photoshop CS, Lightroom and/or DXO. A rebate coupon would be smarter. Nikon don't provide a licence for Capture NX with their similarly priced D3X.
Pentax choose to go medium format to set its product apart from the high-end FF DSLRs. So, they need to go the full route and not stop short just to save a cent. They need professional software to go with the camera. I agree, that LR would be a good choice and I have seen it bundled with other brands. Mamiya includes their Photo Studio, Hasselblad comes with Phocus etc. Pentax comes with?

I would want a software, that does allow me to remote control the camera and I would be happy to have wireless remote control via WiFi etc., like Canon and Nikon provide.

QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
But I do agree that Pentax needs to have a very strong professional support available. But again, I'm not sure it is necessary to include it, maybe as an option to keep an attractive price for wealthy enthousiasts.
Professional services are not necessary inclusive. Hasselblad or Mamiya do not give away their wedding seminars or studio lighting seminars for free (at least not all of these seminars). But Pentax has not even released yet any visible sign of commitement to pro services.

Then there is the question of professional repair services. In the long and distant past I got a turnaround time of 10 days from Pentax as a working pro, including postage times. Now I have to send my faulty Pentax equipment to a third party repair center and it took me nearly 6 weeks, and several phone calls and faxes to get a lens repaired. That is wholly unacceptable.

I for once am in the lucky position to already have a good stock of Mamiya 645 equipment, so my preferred choice for a medium format digicam is the ZD - despite using Pentax for nearly 30 years now. But I cannot see the pro service, which is a necessity for such a camera. – That may be different in Japan or Singapore or wherever, but I am based in Germany.

Ben
04-30-2010, 04:28 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
Example: AC-Foto GmbH
Isn't that product discontinued?
QuoteQuote:

That's 9000 Euros for the complete kit, including standard lens AND including 19% German VAT. So, Pentax, is not really that much cheaper! Yes, I know, it is the 22 MP back and not the 40 MP, Pentax claims, but it is a cheap start and with Mamiya you can exchange backs and upgrade them as required, wheras with Pentax you are bound to what you bought initially.
Yes, you can buy the M31 31mp back for "only" 13000 Euro and still be only half way to the resolution of the 645D
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