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04-30-2010, 05:04 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
That's 9000 Euros for the complete kit, including standard lens AND including 19% German VAT. [B]So, Pentax, is not really that much cheaper!
Comparing the list price of a camera that is not even shipping with the discounted price of a four-year-old model is hardly fair. Besides the fact that the Mamiya was ill-received, the difference in sensor, as you note, is hardly trivial. Twice the pixels actually means something.

04-30-2010, 06:42 AM   #32
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Wow it's coming to Aus?

Great! Now another bit of kit to add to my collection.

Pffft who needs FF when you have one of these suckers?
04-30-2010, 07:13 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
That's 9000 Euros for the complete kit
Ben,

I normally do appreciate your posts as they are often to the point. Not in this case where you missed the point by as much as possible.

Comparing an obsolete 22MP Dalsa chip with state-of-the-art technology as deployed by Pentax, Hasselblad and Leica then this is like comparing, as Germans say, to compare Äpfel with Birnen

Compare the 40MP chips within Pentax, Hasselblad and Leica and you see that Pentax is indeed half price only.

Compare the 22MP Dalsa chip with the superior Sony 24MP chip as used in the A900 and you see that Mamyia still is 4x as expensive.

The A900 is a very good proposition for studio and landscape shooters requiring 20-25 MP and the 645D is a very good proposition for studio and landscape shooters requiring 40 MP. The 22MP Dalsa chip is a very good proposition for nobody. So, how could you bring its price into the discussion?
04-30-2010, 07:31 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
Example: AC-Foto GmbH

That's 9000 Euros for the complete kit, including standard lens AND including 19% German VAT. So, Pentax, is not really that much cheaper! Yes, I know, it is the 22 MP back and not the 40 MP, Pentax claims, but it is a cheap start and with Mamiya you can exchange backs and upgrade them as required, wheras with Pentax you are bound to what you bought initially.



Pentax choose to go medium format to set its product apart from the high-end FF DSLRs. So, they need to go the full route and not stop short just to save a cent. They need professional software to go with the camera. I agree, that LR would be a good choice and I have seen it bundled with other brands. Mamiya includes their Photo Studio, Hasselblad comes with Phocus etc. Pentax comes with?

I would want a software, that does allow me to remote control the camera and I would be happy to have wireless remote control via WiFi etc., like Canon and Nikon provide.



Professional services are not necessary inclusive. Hasselblad or Mamiya do not give away their wedding seminars or studio lighting seminars for free (at least not all of these seminars). But Pentax has not even released yet any visible sign of commitement to pro services.

Then there is the question of professional repair services. In the long and distant past I got a turnaround time of 10 days from Pentax as a working pro, including postage times. Now I have to send my faulty Pentax equipment to a third party repair center and it took me nearly 6 weeks, and several phone calls and faxes to get a lens repaired. That is wholly unacceptable.

I for once am in the lucky position to already have a good stock of Mamiya 645 equipment, so my preferred choice for a medium format digicam is the ZD - despite using Pentax for nearly 30 years now. But I cannot see the pro service, which is a necessity for such a camera. – That may be different in Japan or Singapore or wherever, but I am based in Germany.

Ben
QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Ben,

I normally do appreciate your posts as they are often to the point. Not in this case where you missed the point by as much as possible.

Comparing an obsolete 22MP Dalsa chip with state-of-the-art technology as deployed by Pentax, Hasselblad and Leica then this is like comparing, as Germans say, to compare Äpfel with Birnen

Compare the 40MP chips within Pentax, Hasselblad and Leica and you see that Pentax is indeed half price only.

Compare the 22MP Dalsa chip with the superior Sony 24MP chip as used in the A900 and you see that Mamyia still is 4x as expensive.

The A900 is a very good proposition for studio and landscape shooters requiring 20-25 MP and the 645D is a very good proposition for studio and landscape shooters requiring 40 MP. The 22MP Dalsa chip is a very good proposition for nobody. So, how could you bring its price into the discussion?
I agree with Falconeye here that a Mamiya croped sensor (more than Pentax's) can be compared to Sony's 24Mpx.

But to be fair, the main point from Ben is about support. I think we all agree taht Pentax needs to put a full effort for a full pro support network. And Pentax/Hoya seems to have understood it as they sell the camera in Japan only first most likely to overcome this problem.

On a side note, the 645D pro support network may be Pentax's draft for a true pro network for an upcoming 35mm K-mount camera. A MF support network is not as big as a 35mm support network, so it may be a good way to tune organisation and competence before going on a bigger market.

04-30-2010, 08:31 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
But to be fair, the main point from Ben is about support.
Sorry, missed that. Of course, You and Ben are right and I do agree.

I also don't really see the problem. Pentax can start somewhere. Like in some fashion capitals (Paris, New York, Milano, Tokio. Adding LA, London, Berlin/Munich). And evolve from there as demand is growing. I really don't see the need for a black and white kind of decision. A pro service would be a payable option and the creation of yet another pro support center could be an entirely local market-driven decision. Calumet could be a good first partner.
04-30-2010, 08:40 AM   #36
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From what I can tell, it is mainly the service factor. I can't imagine too many pros waiting a month for the repair company to call back and then say, "Yes, we've just started to look at your camera now..."

Even a premium for expedited service would be good. There's certainly demand for this bit o' kit, but I don't think it can compete with the 1Ds and the D3s, since most of those would be used by pros.
04-30-2010, 09:39 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
From what I can tell, it is mainly the service factor. I can't imagine too many pros waiting a month for the repair company to call back and then say, "Yes, we've just started to look at your camera now..."
That is already in place. At least in my part of the world....
04-30-2010, 02:46 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
That is already in place. At least in my part of the world....
We have about 16 time the population of Norway and we have roughly between 5000 and 8000 professional photographers, BUT we do not have a Pentax professional service well, not anymore.

Fine if Pentax Norway or your local distributor is more careing, but that is certainly not supportive for the rest of Europe.

Ben

04-30-2010, 02:51 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Ben,

I normally do appreciate your posts as they are often to the point. Not in this case where you missed the point by as much as possible.

Comparing an obsolete 22MP Dalsa chip with state-of-the-art technology as deployed by Pentax, Hasselblad and Leica then this is like comparing, as Germans say, to compare Äpfel with Birnen
Falk, I agree, that my example was probably quite ill fetched. The real problem is support and service. And if some hobby photographers claim, that they don't need that, it is fine. There are and always have been some enthusiasts who bought pro equeipment - and that's great.

But if you earn your living with photography, you cannot shrug your shoulders, when it comes to service.

What I meant was: I don't care for a handful of pixels or even some price advantage, if I have to wait six weeks for a simple lens repair. I don't care for these perceived advantages, if I have a question about a camera/sensor and my studio flash equipment or if I need a certain lens on loan fast for a job the other day - because all that I cannot get from Pentax currently.

In that case price is no argument. But getting the support and the equipment to do a job is decisive. One can always rent a 40MP or 60MP camera for a job, if that is needed, but obvisouly not a Pentax.

Ben
04-30-2010, 04:00 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mohawk Quote
Wow it's coming to Aus?
CR Kennedy, the Australian distributor for Pentax, also distribute and support Hasselblad, as well as a ton of other professional and industrial imaging brands. As part of this, they already have a Professional Imaging division that offers things like full service contracts, including replacement cameras during repairs or servicing. So I think they would be very well placed to offer the 645D here.
05-01-2010, 01:59 PM   #41
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Hoya has clearly stated that Pentax needs a professional service and distribution network for the 645D, and this does not yet exist outside Japan. They are considering building up one, but this takes both time and money and Hoya are not yet sure it is worth the effort. To fully support and market the 645D outside Japan, Pentax needs to build up those things. Of course the camera can be released without a professional service and distribution network, but then it will only sell to enthusiasts and Hoya will not spend large money on marketing - so it will be "available by order" only.
The Japanese home market comes first, when supply has meet the demand in Japan then it may be shipped overseas.
05-03-2010, 12:56 AM   #42
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The company unofficially projects that they will be manufacturing 200-300 645D per month for the first 6 months of production. The street price at 6 months post release im Japan is estimated amongst industry insiders to be less than $5,000 U.S.
05-03-2010, 01:16 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
The company unofficially projects that they will be manufacturing 200-300 645D per month for the first 6 months of production. The street price at 6 months post release im Japan is estimated amongst industry insiders to be less than $5,000 U.S.
Industry insiders ? Who ? That's a price down by more than 20% in 6 months. Lifecycles of pro cameras are much longer than amateurs. I would doubt that the price would be down by 20% after one year. Especially if the demand is strong, as the sensor supply would be most likely a limiting factor to ramp up production.

A 5000$ price in 6 months would be very very optimistic IMO.

I'm very cautious when people speak about "industry insiders" as by experience in my own industry. Working in the domain is not always a garanty for pertinence.

But 5000$ would be very, very tempting.
05-03-2010, 01:30 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
The company unofficially projects that they will be manufacturing 200-300 645D per month for the first 6 months of production.
Where did you get that?! Hoya's representatives said that they will produce initially 500 camera per month.
05-03-2010, 01:41 AM   #45
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The official Pentax press release talks about an initial production volume of 500 units/month (unless I misread).
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