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11-30-2011, 04:30 PM   #1531
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QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
My D700 is more accurate and requires less AF adjustment (I've literally never had to use it, despite the shallower DoF) than my K-5. Not that the K-5 is bad, the D700 is just perfect.

But that's just one data point.
This is my experience exactly. Manual focusing with Nikon AI's is perfect on the D700 even at the widest aperture.

11-30-2011, 04:31 PM   #1532
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Oh yeah, I'm in the Falconeye Full Frame is not controversial although definitely incredible camp. BTW- Thanks for distracting me at work. It made my day!!!
12-01-2011, 09:40 AM   #1533
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QuoteOriginally posted by Foma Quote
I wish Pentax to produce a mirrorless FF camera.

(snip)

7. Mirrorless = short flange focal distance = ability to use lenses from any other brand/system with adapter = additional market for FF mirrorless camera.

8. Mirrorless = small and light camera body, even with SR

9. Mirrorless = small and optically good wide lenses = good for street shooting and landscape photography.

10. Small and light weatherproof FF camera with good wide lenses - a landscape photographer's dream come true.

I really wish Pentax would produce a mirrorless FF camera.
(slightly edited)

If this new FF mirrorless camera uses short flange distance all older Pentax lenses will be obsolete, without an adapter - not an ideal situation in my book! But I am all for a mirrorless FF camera ;-)!

Sadly, a full-format camera with small ('pancake') lenses, with a mirrorless-style design, that is, with short flange distance, just doesn't mix! Unless you spend a fortune on new lens designs. The NEX-7 evidently have problems with wide lenses, and a mirrorless Pentax would not fare better, if it used a similar short flange!

Hasselblad in the 50's built a model that had a design like that, the SWC: No mirror, and equipped with a very short, very wide, pancake lens, but still 6x6 format. The early versions were called simply SWC (Super Wide Camera), and had to have a separate optical viewfinder on top. Loved that camera, totally manual, but it cost a lot (amazingly expensive), and there was just that lens for it! A digital version would be just swell, but extremely expensive, of course!

Ken Rockwell is one of many lovers of the SWC: Hasselblad SWC Test Review © 2005 KenRockwell.com
12-01-2011, 09:47 AM   #1534
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My ideal camera would be like the classic single-lens Rollei, but with an OLED viewfinder on top (with a classic lightshaft), a simpler display at the back, for those who want an uncluttered viewfinder, but using FA lenses, of course ;-)! And no mirror, of course!

12-01-2011, 10:08 AM   #1535
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tord Quote
The NEX-7 evidently have problems with wide lenses, and a mirrorless Pentax would not fare better, if it used a similar short flange!
The NEX-5n doesn't have the problems of the NEX-7, and neither does the GXR:
Sony NEX-7 with wide angle Leica lenses – A quick test and Ricoh GXR A12 Comparison! | STEVE HUFF PHOTOS
12-01-2011, 12:55 PM   #1536
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As a Pentax user for quite some time now, here is my take. Pentax already have their Full Frame camera. It is called the Pentax 645D. Pentax will come out with their new generation of cropped sensor cameras with higher pixel counts and lower noise. The FF market is very small compared to the rest, thus no reason for Pentax to go after the 35mm FF market. The 645D is very close in price to the Canon D series FF cameras, with much nicer output. The price of the 645D will drop by up to 25 percent over the next year or so and will remain at around the 5 to 6k euros price range. Pentax will come out with a 24 megapixel camera using the new Sony sensor, with improved noise performance. That is my take at this time.
12-01-2011, 01:46 PM - 1 Like   #1537
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I think a lot of us are in agreement but the contention will continue until the next-to-last Pentax user is laid to rest. The last one can debate internally but no one will hear ....
12-01-2011, 01:55 PM   #1538
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
As a Pentax user for quite some time now, here is my take. Pentax already have their Full Frame camera. It is called the Pentax 645D. Pentax will come out with their new generation of cropped sensor cameras with higher pixel counts and lower noise. The FF market is very small compared to the rest, thus no reason for Pentax to go after the 35mm FF market. The 645D is very close in price to the Canon D series FF cameras, with much nicer output. The price of the 645D will drop by up to 25 percent over the next year or so and will remain at around the 5 to 6k euros price range. Pentax will come out with a 24 megapixel camera using the new Sony sensor, with improved noise performance. That is my take at this time.
I think the 645D will drop eventually just to prepare for Mark II with a FF 645 sensor to stay competitive with the other MF cameras. I'd like to see the 5-6k euro, right now the CDN price is about 7700 euro, so a drop to that price would bring it close to $7500-8000CDN. Phase has dropped their entry level to be competitive. Personally though i see it as a unique product. Definitely a field camera like the old pentax's were. The Mamiya/Phase and Hassy are different machines aimed more at studio work. If they could improve the Flash and AF on the mark II it could easily become a Wedding camera as well

I hate to say you may be right on the FF. But you never know. FF may not be as small a market as you think either Ben. There are an awful lot of enthusiasts and pro wanna Be's buying the entry level FF from Canikon. Every time I'm in Henry's i see a 5D or D700 being sold. I rarely see a Pentax being sold

12-01-2011, 01:57 PM   #1539
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
As a Pentax user for quite some time now, here is my take. Pentax already have their Full Frame camera. It is called the Pentax 645D. Pentax will come out with their new generation of cropped sensor cameras with higher pixel counts and lower noise. The FF market is very small compared to the rest, thus no reason for Pentax to go after the 35mm FF market. The 645D is very close in price to the Canon D series FF cameras, with much nicer output. The price of the 645D will drop by up to 25 percent over the next year or so and will remain at around the 5 to 6k euros price range. Pentax will come out with a 24 megapixel camera using the new Sony sensor, with improved noise performance. That is my take at this time.
The next generation of the 645D will have a CMOS sensor/LiveView/HD video and probably be priced in the $6,000-$7,000 range. Pentax needs to get the number of lenses up to create a really compelling system. The 645D will be Pentax's "PRO" system for the future. Pentax is selling all they can make at the current price. Pentax needs some really compelling lenses for this system.
12-01-2011, 03:09 PM   #1540
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As a stage photographer, the K-5's low noise is more than enough for me, and I'm rather happy with my ability to get the equivalent of a 75mm f/1.4 lens I can fit in my pocket. And costs less than £200. Or wonderful things like a 200mm equivalent f/1.8. Obviously for wide angle junkies crop sensors suck, but we have equivalents of 300mm f/2.8, 450mm f/4, 70-200mm f/2.8 and all those amazingly useful lenses for a fraction of the size and cost. And they have exceptional image quality!

I want Pentax to make a K-5 that is built to survive a nuclear bomb. Anyone can get saleable images with it, and a small, ultra high quality sensor has benefits that just aren't physically possible with a FF one. Adding an EVF for the huge viewfinder negates one major downfall, and brings Pentax further towards the future of digital imaging. My dream camera is a K-5 with an EVF, much smoother and faster AF, with as durable a build as possible. And it has to be reliable this time.

Then I can run around with a 120mm equivalent (ish) f/1.8 lens I can fit in my pocket and blend into the background better than anyone with a 135mm f/2 on full frame. They can keep their shallower depth of field.
12-01-2011, 04:01 PM   #1541
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K-5 with an EVF? I would hate such a thing, so much that I'd rather leave Pentax (to Nikon or whatever camera maker that would still use a real viewfinder, not miniature TVs).
And if it wouldn't be a SLT, it doesn't make sense to retain the K-mount's registration distance. Which means my lenses would need adapters, eventually working with some limitations.
12-01-2011, 04:16 PM   #1542
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103 pages, and of them, 101 are filled with FF hate.

You really should feel the FF love. There's no other way around the diffraction limits of APS-C.

Either that or people just hate the FF cup size.
12-01-2011, 04:28 PM   #1543
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
As a Pentax user for quite some time now, here is my take. Pentax already have their Full Frame camera. It is called the Pentax 645D. Pentax will come out with their new generation of cropped sensor cameras with higher pixel counts and lower noise. The FF market is very small compared to the rest, thus no reason for Pentax to go after the 35mm FF market. The 645D is very close in price to the Canon D series FF cameras, with much nicer output. The price of the 645D will drop by up to 25 percent over the next year or so and will remain at around the 5 to 6k euros price range. Pentax will come out with a 24 megapixel camera using the new Sony sensor, with improved noise performance. That is my take at this time.
Butt then again, where do I spend my money on next year. I spend 3000 euro on pentax this year on new purchased gear. I shopped at Sigma, because off lacking a Pentax lens. I spend some money on the things around the camera (memorycards, PC-upgrade, a bag and camerasupport). My two K-5's are very new still. The Silver is from april and my black is just new bought with cashback. So if there is nothing really new in 2012 I could even live true to 2013 with just the things in my camerabag.

I'm leaning towards having three body's so either an improved K-5 or APS-H or FF would be the third camera. If it is only APS-C then it would need to be really better then K-5 is (only a new 24 megapixel sensor would not be enough since I don't need the extra pixels).
12-01-2011, 04:40 PM   #1544
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
K-5 with an EVF? I would hate such a thing, so much that I'd rather leave Pentax (to Nikon or whatever camera maker that would still use a real viewfinder, not miniature TVs).
And if it wouldn't be a SLT, it doesn't make sense to retain the K-mount's registration distance. Which means my lenses would need adapters, eventually working with some limitations.
Personally, I don't care if they make an EVF camera, but it wouldn't be a K-5, would it? The problem might come if they adopted Sony's reported strategy of moving all its dSLRs to that type of arrangement. Then, not having a real (ie non EVF) dSLR would be a disadvantage to Pentax, at least as far as many here are concerned, me included.

On other recent comments, it's interesting to note that some regard the evolution of the 645D as the only necessary "pro" camera in Pentax's lineup, while lamenting the tiny lens range. I presume this refers to new lenses, tailored to the 645D sensor, rather than new or old lenses for the film 645. Conversely, there are, of course, many new lenses still available for the potential "K-3" or whatever it may be called (maybe "645 Junior", as the sensor wouldn't be physically much smaller - just kidding), and many second-hand ones that could be fully functional. Putting it in commercial terms, we have a new product limited by the small amount of available infrastructure, and a possible product with a great deal more available infrastructure. If, like the 645D, some of the existing in-camera systems could be utilised in a new body, that would make a 35mm sensor camera considerably more attractive to manufacture, I imagine, particularly if the economics were such that it wouldn't cannibalise the 645D market.
12-01-2011, 04:59 PM   #1545
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mareket Quote
we have equivalents of 300mm f/2.8, 450mm f/4, 70-200mm f/2.8
I agree the K-5 is a wonderful camera. But you have a false understanding of lens equivalence. Because many have, let me do one post to correct you on this:

The equivalent lenses to the DA 200/2.8, 300/4 and 50-135/2.8 (the lenses you obviously have in mind) read:
FA 300/4, 500/5.6 and 70-200/4 (rounded).
Such lenses exist (in general) and are no bulkier or more expensive than the DAs. In fact, they have an identical diameter in glass, and they do so for a physical reason.

The advantage of FF is that you can find lenses where equivalent lenses don't exist for APS-C.

One reason why people are confused with lens equivalence is that they forget to scale ISO to scale with the square of crop too. Not doing so would create images with different exposure time, different amounts of noise, different DoF or different diffraction blur, i.e., images which aren't equivalent. The F-Stop, ISO and focal length must change all three when switching the body between APS-C and FF, in order to create an identical image.

So, while I agree the K-5 is fabulous, the reasons why it is are elsewhere.

Last edited by falconeye; 12-01-2011 at 05:07 PM.
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