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02-16-2012, 12:51 PM   #2536
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Someone at THAT advanced level, someone who demands THAT amount of quality, doesn't buy a photocamera for the videocapability.
No they don't but look at the success of the 5DmkII over the superior in many ways D700. Good video is a huge market for FF particularly in the middle market rather than the top model end where the video guys make the move up to the 4k Red and arriflex models (and the 1d series and d3 weren't really video oriented)
the new D800 with what looks to be amazing video specs will be the camera for many now the way the 5DII was unless Canon drops a bomb in the 5DIII that hasn't leaked yet.
I would bet fully a third of 5DII sales were driven by the video because there is nothing in the price that compares in a true video camera

So Pentax dropping the feature is a way to ignore a huge market. I like unique but not so unique it fails to sell long term that's bad for me and Pentax

I still think my LX-D idea could be implemented with video and tilting screen with a Sony 24MP cmos for 1999. and have huge appeal (smallest FF camera made (unless nex gets there first) compatible with millions of lenses and top image quality. Once the market is built Pentax can then offer a step up proper DSLR with much heavier pro feature set at the higher price range (think between a D800 and a D4) for the price of a D800 or slightly higher. gotta be a player first though before they can offer a head to head product at the same price
LX-D would meet the criteria of unique to the market (FF or otherwise if that top EVF idea is there). It pays tribute to the long storied past of the brand and builds on the future. at a value price of 1999 it also becomes insanely attractive to photo students looking to have FF (Bloody expensive compared to a K1000 but I see a lot of Photo students shooting D700 and 5DII)

02-16-2012, 12:59 PM   #2537
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For over a year Nikon has purchased 100% of Sony's FF sensor supply at terrific margins for Sony and with a locked in price and design contribution by Nikon.

There is no way Sony is going to upset its largest customer by selling the same tech to Pentax to undercut Nikon and reduce overall margins. If anyone will choose to compete with Nikon it will be Sony itself. Sony has been in the red for 5 years on balance now. They will not jeopardize margins nor revenue streams.

There are indications the D700 may stay in production. That will make it very difficult to compete on price for anyone in the FF market.
02-16-2012, 01:19 PM   #2538
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
For over a year Nikon has purchased 100% of Sony's FF sensor supply at terrific margins for Sony and with a locked in price and design contribution by Nikon.

There is no way Sony is going to upset its largest customer by selling the same tech to Pentax to undercut Nikon and reduce overall margins. If anyone will choose to compete with Nikon it will be Sony itself. Sony has been in the red for 5 years on balance now. They will not jeopardize margins nor revenue streams.

There are indications the D700 may stay in production. That will make it very difficult to compete on price for anyone in the FF market.
Couldn't you make the same argument about the k-5 sensor? Except for the 'undercut' portion, of course... I don't know if that's the crux of your argument, though. Personally I don't really care about the price as long as it has the IQ/features to match and isn't more than $500 more than the equivalent Nikon.
02-16-2012, 01:33 PM   #2539
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Well maybe their profit margin's on those sensors should be higher.. and they might not run in the red! But that's Sony's own fault then.. regardless, there are others making FF sensors.. Pentax simply lacks the effort and does need to address their other short comings before being a real contender in that (Prosumer/Pro) market anyways. They are set well in the enthusiast market, and if they keep up rugged and WR's models they will do fine.. But there is a saying.. if your business isn't growing, it's shrinking.. so far they are growing again now that HOYA is out of the picture.. just not in all directions easily possible.

Even with the D700 staying in production, the 12.1MP sensor and no video feature set 1/2 throws it under the bus, even compared to the 5D Mark II which will be replaced by years end as well. Yes it will be a cheap FF option with good IQ and great AF.. but other than AF and FF FoV (and better flash system) there is little gained over a K-5 for overall features. The 5D Mark II and III, the D800 are going to be the full featured entry level into FF.

Best bang for your buck now would probably be picking up a 5D Mark II and throwing on Magic Lantern firmware.. 21.1 MP, 1080P@60fps, full feature set with that firmware... but it's AF/Low light is not up to the D700's level.

02-16-2012, 01:55 PM   #2540
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My reasoning for a simplistic FF is
1. cost
2. size (like the old film cameras)
3. niche (kind of like Leica)
4. IQ (this should be top priority)

IF you want a camera with video/liveview/etc. you can either
1. buy into FF CaNikion (hey, if you're that big into video then why not be a part of their "pro support group?")
2. Shoot with the K-01 or K-5 successor (or even the K-5 for that matter)

Ideally, Pentax would release two FF cameras, imho. One would rival the D800/5D mk3 level (video, liveview, and all the full feature set) and be priced competitively against the CaNikon counterparts ~$2800. The other would be what I described in my earlier post, and would cost ~$1800-2000. They would fill two completely different markets.
02-16-2012, 02:18 PM   #2541
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ubuntu_user Quote
My reasoning for a simplistic FF is
1. cost
2. size (like the old film cameras)
3. niche (kind of like Leica)
4. IQ (this should be top priority)

IF you want a camera with video/liveview/etc. you can either
1. buy into FF CaNikion (hey, if you're that big into video then why not be a part of their "pro support group?")
2. Shoot with the K-01 or K-5 successor (or even the K-5 for that matter)

Ideally, Pentax would release two FF cameras, imho. One would rival the D800/5D mk3 level (video, liveview, and all the full feature set) and be priced competitively against the CaNikon counterparts ~$2800. The other would be what I described in my earlier post, and would cost ~$1800-2000. They would fill two completely different markets.
1 and 3 are at odds with one another. leica can have a custom fab CCD because they can charge $7000 for a $2500 camera

Personally i'm with you on the who cares about video BUT if it is a huge part of the potential market for cameras in general and you are going to put out a camera that by it's price alone will have the market narrowed considerably you have to satisfy that demand. look what Nikon did when they released the D800. that will kill canon until the replacement comes
02-16-2012, 02:56 PM   #2542
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
1 and 3 are at odds with one another. leica can have a custom fab CCD because they can charge $7000 for a $2500 camera

Personally i'm with you on the who cares about video BUT if it is a huge part of the potential market for cameras in general and you are going to put out a camera that by it's price alone will have the market narrowed considerably you have to satisfy that demand. look what Nikon did when they released the D800. that will kill canon until the replacement comes
I was meaning niche as in the fact that no other camera manufacture is selling a sub $2k FF camera in a minimalist/film style body...

But yes, I totally see what you're saying... I wonder how large the market might actually be for such a camera (that is marketed for it's simplistic qualities), I wish there were some way to know exact market numbers...
02-16-2012, 04:04 PM   #2543
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ubuntu_user Quote
I was meaning niche as in the fact that no other camera manufacture is selling a sub $2k FF camera in a minimalist/film style body...

But yes, I totally see what you're saying... I wonder how large the market might actually be for such a camera (that is marketed for it's simplistic qualities), I wish there were some way to know exact market numbers...
that's what you pay the big bucks for market research for

02-16-2012, 04:28 PM - 1 Like   #2544
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ubuntu_user Quote
I was meaning niche as in the fact that no other camera manufacture is selling a sub $2k FF camera in a minimalist/film style body...
...

The problem is that is the sensor that cost money in an FF camera. The features are all basically software on a chip and virtually free after the have been developed. Theres no savings to be had by making the camera minimalistic...
02-16-2012, 04:33 PM   #2545
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QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
Full Frame Dream Crushed today. Pentax change the name of the new DA50 f1.8 to mid tele from "normal'.
Just look at the description of the FA 50/1.4. It is still a normal lens.

More relevant is Kawauchi's statement in the PF interview:
"We continuously consider 35mm (full-frame), but it has to be different from what other manufactures are releasing and lenses supporting 35mm have to be prepared. We think these are the principal challenges. So for example, even if we decide to make a full size SLR in the future, we will release what is not available from the other makers. We cannot comment and we do not know when it will be. "
I hope the interviewer followed up with the question "But a K-mount FF body is not available from other makers, is it?".
02-16-2012, 04:48 PM   #2546
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
"if we decide to make a full size SLR in the future, we will release what is not available from the other makers. We cannot comment and we do not know when it will be."
But this sounds like they have the idea already. And SLR isn't mirrorless. The sad point is that despite the idea, it also sounds they haven't really started a project yet. It all doesn't make sense, the D800 takes most of remaining potential customers now. And even if the idea is a small and esthetically pleasing FF body (what I would applaud), we know from the K-7/D7000 that it takes Nikon only a year to copy it.
02-16-2012, 04:53 PM   #2547
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
But this sounds like they have the idea already. And SLR isn't mirrorless. The sad point is that despite the idea, it also sounds they haven't really started a project yet. It all doesn't make sense, the D800 takes most of remaining potential customers now.

i agree the d800 is damn impressive, i think though they are starting from scratch because i think hoya well and truly shelved ff development and designs out there are old and primitive at best.

really the opening is compact wr good build etc - ie d800 in a k5 size
or a mirrorless

both these areas are not served but that won't last
02-16-2012, 06:28 PM   #2548
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Originally posted by Class A*
"if we decide to make a full size SLR in the future, we will release what is not available from the other makers. We cannot comment and we do not know when it will be."
But this sounds like they have the idea already. And SLR isn't mirrorless. The sad point is that despite the idea, it also sounds they haven't really started a project yet. It all doesn't make sense, the D800 takes most of remaining potential customers now. And even if the idea is a small and esthetically pleasing FF body (what I would applaud), we know from the K-7/D7000 that it takes Nikon only a year to copy it.
I wanted a full frame DSLR to match my PZ1P. Nikon could get my next purchase. I've read all the tired APS-C talking points on the forums (APS-C is good enough, corner sharpness, sensor cost, etc...), yet I still want full frame.
02-16-2012, 06:29 PM   #2549
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chex Quote
... and Yes, Pentax NEEDS a better Flash system. I do like the idea of disable SR for faster flash sync.. I'm ok with loosing SR all together for how little I ever use it.

They need to address their AF system to bring it up to the competitions level more-so than updating their flash system.. But there is no reason this can't be done while implementing it IN a new FF system..
bring it out as their new flagship FF.. even for $2000-2500 it WILL sell. As for "Wasted" R&D money.. to me that is what SR was all about.. yes it's a nice feature.. but IMHO it's also gimmicky.. if you know WTF your doing and how your settings should be, you should need it anyways. For the amount of pics "saved" by SR, if that money was put into a better AF system, you would end up with more keepers than those "saved" by SR.
Well I can at least partially agree with this. If Pentax addresses their major deficiencies and those fixes happen to come in a FF body, I certainly won't be unhappy. But if they just spend $ to bring a FF to market and don't do something about AF, and a decent flash solution they will have made a fatal error. APS-C works well enough. Pentax AF and flash are simply not competitive.

To your point about SR, I just add that one to my list of lesser peeves.
02-16-2012, 09:08 PM   #2550
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QuoteOriginally posted by pz1fan Quote
yet I still want full frame.
And why shouldn't you?!
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