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07-07-2012, 04:59 AM   #2941
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Actually most people do not even know the name Pentax and as such would certainly not buy into a new system from an unknown brand. So only the legacy users might. But wouldn't. For obvious reasons.

New mount=Pentax death.
Actually actually none of us has any idea - absolutely no idea whatsoever - whether new mount=Pentax death. That's because we are not seers or prophets, thank heavens, and do not know what technology may produce or which way the world may turn. Remaining open minded, alert to possibilities and interested in new ideas are key. Otherwise companies, like humans, fossilize. In any case the choice is not binary. For example, if Pentax thought that new-format, smaller cameras exploiting some new tech invention were the way of the future and they introduced a new mount for that, chances are huge this would run beside the existing K-mount line (or whatever it morphs into) for a long time, and then probably with an adapter for even longer after that. We are looking at periods of years here, not the internet attention span of the next few days or "until Photokina" meaning a couple of months. Don't understand the hysteria whenever it's suggested that the K-mount might not still be around in 2050 et al. Loosen up, chaps. It's just a camera.


Last edited by mecrox; 07-07-2012 at 05:04 AM.
07-07-2012, 05:08 AM   #2942
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I have not heard any valid reason why having to pay for and use an adapter is such a great idea. If so, Canon, Nikon, everyone would use a different mount on the camera and on the lenses... because you can use an adapter, right?
It seems to me "two way compatibility" is a concept you cannot comprehend. But trust me, it's a big deal for many Pentaxians.

You also cannot comprehend that Pentax R&D and production capacity is limited; if they suddenly would have to launch let's say 4 new lenses for your stupid me_too_new_mount_for_the_sake_of_having_a_mee_too_new_mount system, 4 K-mount lenses would have to be postponed. Choose, which of them?
Your stupid mount can only be made at the expense of the K-mount (or, 645D and K-mount).

I currently have the K-5 - their flagship at the moment, the DA* 60-250mm, 3 Limiteds (21, 35, 70) and few other lenses. Am I a legacy user? Would people who have a similar or even "better" kit than me thinks otherwise? Oh, yeah, they'll gladly run to the shops to buy adapters


mecrox, more people have heard about the K-mount system than about some imaginary me_too_new_mount_for_the_sake_of_having_a_mee_too_new_mount.
Pentax genuinely thinks their future is with the K-mount; but this is something difficult to fathom for some.

I do have an idea: I can say with absolute certainty that a new, fully supported, APS-C and larger mount is very risky and it would badly hurt the K-mount - their most important source of income. I can say with absolute certainty Pentax wants to avoid that; the K-01 and their thinking of protruding K-mount lenses are proof.
Being open minded also means to admit when your idea is stupid, stop repeating it ad nauseam and get over it. By the way, how did the 2050 figure suddenly appeared in this discussion?
07-07-2012, 05:13 AM   #2943
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I have not heard any valid reason why having to pay for and use an adapter is such a great idea. If so, Canon, Nikon, everyone would use a different mount on the camera and on the lenses... because you can use an adapter, right?
It seems to me "two way compatibility" is a concept you cannot comprehend. But trust me, it's a big deal for many Pentaxians.

You also cannot comprehend that Pentax R&D and production capacity is limited; if they suddenly would have to launch let's say 4 new lenses for your stupid me_too_new_mount_for_the_sake_of_having_a_mee_too_new_mount system, 4 K-mount lenses would have to be postponed. Choose, which of them?
Your stupid mount can only be made at the expense of the K-mount (or, 645D and K-mount).

I currently have the K-5 - their flagship at the moment, the DA* 60-250mm, 3 Limiteds (21, 35, 70) and few other lenses. Am I a legacy user? Would people who have a similar or even "better" kit than me thinks otherwise? Oh, yeah, they'll gladly run to the shops to buy adapters


mecrox, more people have heard about the K-mount system than about some imaginary me_too_new_mount_for_the_sake_of_having_a_mee_too_new_mount.
Pentax genuinely thinks their future is with the K-mount; but this is something difficult to fathom for some.

I do have an idea: I can say with absolute certainty that a new, fully supported, APS-C and larger mount is very risky and it would badly hurt the K-mount - their most important source of income. I can say with absolute certainty Pentax wants to avoid that; the K-01 and their thinking of protruding K-mount lenses are proof.
Being open minded also means to admit when your idea is stupid, stop repeating it ad nauseam and get over it. By the way, how did the 2050 figure suddenly appeared in this discussion?
Because I introduced it. And if you don't mind, I prefer to read suggestions, not orders. I don't think calling other people stupid is any too clever either. As I said, loosen up fella, it's just a camera.
07-07-2012, 05:56 AM   #2944
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You introduced it, yes, as a strawman.
I didn't call anyone stupid; the idea is. You know, even the brightest&greatest can have a stupid idea, now and then And I didn't gave orders; just offered a perspective different than your "just accept every idea, without filtering out the bad ones". Those who can't accept that, maybe, not introducing a new mount is better aren't open minded.

07-07-2012, 06:06 AM   #2945
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I have not heard any valid reason why having to pay for and use an adapter is such a great idea. If so, Canon, Nikon, everyone would use a different mount on the camera and on the lenses... because you can use an adapter, right?
It seems to me "two way compatibility" is a concept you cannot comprehend. But trust me, it's a big deal for many Pentaxians.

I do have an idea: I can say with absolute certainty that a new, fully supported, APS-C and larger mount is very risky and it would badly hurt the K-mount - their most important source of income. I can say with absolute certainty Pentax wants to avoid that; the K-01 and their thinking of protruding K-mount lenses are proof.
Being open minded also means to admit when your idea is stupid, stop repeating it ad nauseam and get over it. By the way, how did the 2050 figure suddenly appeared in this discussion?
Don't be silly, you are really going over the top now and i doubt you're stupid to know that yourself!
So come with something sensible.
An adaptor is off course to be avoided but if it means you expand your lens selection without any limitation then i don't see that as a negative point, do you, if so then tell me why?
So a mount designed for APS-C which enables faster, better and cheaper lenses is certainly a bonus i'm ready to take if it means i need to use my current lenses with an adaptor and i already explained the reasons why and how clearly so no need to repeat that. I'm pretty sure i ain't the only one who thinks this way either.

The K-mount is not a source of income, i don't see them rent it to others. If you mean the current lens line, well besides the limited it isn't all that special and the fact you can mount older lenses on it but this alone does not bring new people to Pentax. Just look at pentax market share, it's just silly to say this is perfect and we should stay like this till we rot, or do you think that what they are doing now is perfect for the brand and his long term future?
I really want to see something that can compete with the high end nikon and canon range in a relative small package so not the 645D, yes FF might be interesting but to be honest in this digital age where everything gets smaller is it wise to go bigger?
Anyway show me some proof that a new mount will mean the dead of Pentax or that the k-mount system will still be viable option over 20 years, good luck since i can't proof or dis proof it but you said you know with absolute certainty that k-mount is the future so proof it.
07-07-2012, 07:14 AM   #2946
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Silly? Like, promoting a new mount for the sake of having a new mount? Oops... that's not me

Silly is to claim that an adapter would not introduce any limitations.

Silly is to forget we had this discussion some time ago, and you weren't able to persuade anyone - from the lack of pertinent arguments.

The K-mount system is definitely the main source of income for Pentax; thus Pentax cannot make any move that would hurt it. Ignoring this is silly.

Hmm... market share... what makes you think Pentax reached an upper limit, and the K-mount is the reason? Silly. Pentax themselves are planning to increase their market share, from where Hoya left them, and guess what - around the K-mount.
By the way, killing/hurting the K-mount (losing customers) and starting from scratch with a new system, just because, is not a very good way of increasing your market share. You know the saying: "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush."

It's also funny how you ignore that Nikon and Canon high end cameras are actually F-mount and EF-mount; yet Pentax must launch a new one to compete? Why? Oh, I get it: for no particular reason, only because you like the idea.

Last but not least. It's you who has to prove that making a new mount, while not technically required, would bring so greater benefits (including revenues) that would offset all the risks (including losing the K-mount). But you're unable to do it, so you're trying to pass the burden of proof to the others. Guess what - it didn't work.
07-07-2012, 09:44 AM   #2947
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Then i'm not the biggest fool since you went into discussing with me knowing all this.

And please tell me those limitation of an adaptor.

I never said that pentax has reach the upper limit because of the k-mount i only said because of the small market share the time of change would be now because the risk will be less great then for Canon or Nikon so they can take advantage of that now without disappointing to many people. Also instragram, you know that iphone app is sold for much more then what pentax brought up for hoya, that clearly means something....
And it's not a new mount just because, like i said in all my comments it's about competing with FF range of Canon and Nikon with an unique product with different advantages and disavatanges. I think the changes of success will be great then going head on head with a Canon and Nikon FF market and the mount is most likely more future proof.


Oh no it's not me who has to proof anything, i only said it as an idea but you knew absolutely certainty that a new mount would be a failure, it's only logical to ask you why.
But we can point to what happened in the past, Pentax took a hit when for not going to the K-mount but sticking with the m42 mount. Canon has only grew when they have switched mount and same for Olympus and Panasonic.
Can you show me a failure from a company that went from their own mount to a newer mount of their own.
07-07-2012, 10:44 AM - 1 Like   #2948
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Canon went to the EF mount to bring autofocus to their product line. They tried autofocus with the T80, but is was lacking.

So, out came the EF mount. This change allowed a much larger max aperture (50mm 1.0) it allowed electronic control of aperture and focus. It saw the introduction of USM autofocus lenses. Overall the mount change was a MAJOR step fwd for Canon. It was not the mount change that improved Canon's sales, but what the mount change brought to the table that improved sales. It also pissed off their entire user base. Some people still hold anti Canon grudges to this day (20+ years) because of the mount change.

My point is that a change in lens mount just to change the mount is pointless. It would bring nothing to the brand. Pentax has full electronic coupling, autofocus, and a large max aperture (50mm f1.2). You could argue that a new mount could reduce the registration distance, and thus allow for a more compact body, but that will bring into play a number of compromises. Look at Leica and their sensors that are need to deal with their wide angle lenses.

If Pentax wanted to change mounts, the time to do it was with the introduction of the K-01. The fact that they didn't shows that they are committed to the K mount.

07-07-2012, 11:20 AM   #2949
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We could make questions about the anvantage of a new mount constructed for max APS-C size:
1. Is it like an automat, smaller sensor, smaller and cheaper lenses?
- It might make the lenses smaller, but not for sure cheaper. I believe that the volymes from Pentax are not big enough to make the new lenses cheaper, price reduction will not be as big as the reduction of size, actually the price might be higher - now they already have increased DA lens prices.
- If we look at good and bright m4/3 lens prices, you have to pay more than from similar FF lenses, why?
2. If the new system would be better than FF competitors, it must be weather proof, are WR cheaper/smaller?
- To be able to use existing K-mount lenses (which is a must, because you can not make a complete system by overnight), the adapter must be also weather proof, functions like AF should work as good as with out adapter, and the adapters should be sold with understandable price.
- To be convinient to use, you need to have an adapter on every K-mount lens, or you have to remove the adapter too when changing from K-mount to new mount lens and that's not convinient.
3. As you know, Pentax already have a lot of really good F and FA lenses, but yet they have not been able to remake them to be as good in digital bodies as in film bodies, why?
- It might be so, that they do not have the capacity to do that.
- It might be so that even the slight modifications are too expensive or too difficult to do.
- It might be so that those lenses even with out modifications are far too expencive for present market situation - too small volymes to be profitable?

Or what ever questions we could imagine to make, there are far too many open points to be answered, at least answered by us
07-07-2012, 12:02 PM - 1 Like   #2950
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
They can run both mounts simultaneous as well or a good adapter, i haven't heard a valid reason why not beside the personal opinion "i don't want one".
Well get some super glue and put it on the mount and perminantly fix it to the body, problem solved right?

Besides i'm not talking about a mirrorless solution here if you thought that and yes starting from scratch might be a good idea, just look what happend to Canon when they went to the new EOS mount or to olympus and Panasonic with their switch from 4/3th to m4/3 and looked what happened to Pentax when they hold on to the m42 mount. Sometimes you need to let go what you've to go further.

Who said anything about unnecessary lenses on the roadmap?

To be honest i think that actually most Pentaxians will say that, most are legacy users after all. Most people from the outside might look at this and sure they will find it bold but it does show they dare to look into the future. And when they see the f/2 zooms and f/1 primes they will see the reason behind it, besides such a mount will last longer into the future then the K-mount, that one is pretty much end of life if you ask me unless they go FF.
How long will DSLR have anyway in the mainstream market, 20 years at most if not 10 years... in all honesty the m4/3 looks pretty good and future proof, the Olympus OM-D is a step in the right direction i wonder how his predecessor will look like but it might be a candid even thought i actually want an optical viewfinder...

Depends on what Pentax wants, if they want to compete more in the professional market then they have to, either with a FF system or new APS-C system that can take on Canon and Nikon FF.
I have been using Pentax for roughly 30 years now, with 6 film bodies and currently 3 DSLRs and at least 30 Pentax lenses and ten or so others. I would never buy another Pentax body, If I had to use adapters for these lenses. If (and that is a really big IF), the adapter would provide full functionality for K-lenses (KA, KAF, DA etc.), it would be very expensive to make and to buy. On the few M42 lenses I use, I have K-adaptors mounted permanently. That wouldn't be an option with really expensive ones. I really don't think, that Pentax could be stupid enough to switch its mount, as they made a really big issue about their backwards compatibility (without adaptor).

Pentax won't win the professional market anyway with any kind of small format camera, be it 35mm sensor (aka "FF") or aps-c. Pros used Pentax back in the Spotmatic days, because at that time Pentax was really ahead of the competition. These days are long gone and they cannot invest the money to bring themselves back into the professional game. Except for the 645 - if they provide the lenses and accessories, pro photogs really need. The 645D is the only professional segment I can recognize some effort from Pentax's side.

Sure, Pentax can jump onto the bandwaggon of mirrorless cameras, which make only sense, if you use the absence of a mirror for sliming the camera body. In thzat case a new lens line-up with a new, shorter back focal length is sensible. Perhaps they go in that direction. But going FF and introducing a new mount simply doesn't make much sense at all.

Ben
07-07-2012, 12:08 PM   #2951
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Anvh, it's not really a discussion - but a pointless attempt of mine to make you realize some things.

It is silly, indeed, to pretend there are no limitation introduced by breaking compatibility, and forcing the use of an adapter. I assume you're smarter than that but just won't admit you're wrong. I will enumerate though some of those limitations, repeating myself; in yet another futile attempt:
- the mere presence of an adapter. It means added bulk and complexity, more than if integrating the same technologies into the body; and the shape of the camera is changed not in the best way.
- adapters aren't for free. Having to pay to get your lens working is a limitation.
- perfect compatibility via an adapter is not a given (yet you suppose it is). The Sony LA-EA2, for example, doesn't support teleconverters and of course, image stabilization is lost (missing on the NEX). Yes, they bodies can also introduce limitations an adapter can't "fix".
- losing two way compatibility: you can use your old lenses with the new body with this adapter, but you cannot use new lenses with your old cameras.
- AF issues. Either having to use a slow CD-AF, or integrate a PD-AD into the adapter like Sony.

Because of the small market share Pentax can't afford to make costly mistakes. Can a just-because mount really grab significantly more market share, so after years, it would offset hurting the K-mount?

You want what, an OM-G? Buy one, and let us be. You can even use a stinkin' adapter to get those Zuikos working - perfect for you. But, wait, the OM-G can't compete with the Canikon's high end solutions; yet you're asking Pentax to do it, with a similar camera.
By the way, Olympus must be doing great having failed with the 4/3 and then changing the mount; right?

Oh, yes, it's up to you to prove your stupid idea has some merits. You failed before, you fail now while preparing to fail again in the future. Because it hasn't, and because you can't let it go. So, you're blaming us for your own failures.
Read carefully what KungPOW said; one does not simply change the mount. If I'm so vehemently rejecting the just-because mount, you can be sure I would switch to Nikon the instant Pentax would announce such a move, and I wouldn't be the only one; because there's nothing comparable with e.g. the introduction of autofocus, to offset this.
I know they won't, of course. Pentax aren't stupid; they have a plan, and their plan is built around the K-mount.
07-07-2012, 12:33 PM   #2952
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Unless they won't use an aperture ring.

But you're looking at it from a consumer standpoint, there is nothing better for Pentax that you buy a new camera and new lenses.
And in all honesty, sure some shoot with SLR but you can put that up as an point.
It's like bringing out a blu-ray player but instead of HDMI you make it with a scart connector saying that if you still have an old TV you can still use it.... why restrict yourself with something old while you can take the step to something better?

What is there is there so little on the return, you place yourself in an unique market position. Also look at m4/3 and the amount of adapters you've for that. Pentax with a shorter mount would mean you can fit Canon, Nikon and Sony lenses on it and maybe even Leica M lenses.
What is better for Pentax?? Not being able to move all their currently made supply of camera's and lenses because the new mount hits the market and people don't want the old K-mount adapter solution. Their stock of K-30's they just made, K-01's etc.. just sit on shelves because the mount has become abandoned? New mount would be RE-TAR-DED move by Pentax/Ricoh.
As for being able to adapt the shorter registration distance to lenses that fit Canon/Nikon/Sony lenses.. that's nice and all.. do you think that Pentax cares or WANTS you to be looking to buy Nikon/Canon/Sony glass for THEIR camera.. NO, they prefer you buying PENTAX glass.. why make something that supports the competition! That would be a poor marketing move indeed.
07-07-2012, 12:57 PM   #2953
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Diffferent mount for Pentax!

We already had a large discussion about this when the rumors came along that a new mirrorless camera (NC-1) maybe would be coming having a smaller then APS-C sized sensor. That became Q. Not my first idea of making a new camera, but it does serve a different market.

My contributionthere:

QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well going alone is another problem. Just another mico-K-mount has no future either. So to me there are a few options that really could work.
  1. Join Panansonic/Olympus with the micro 4/3th using the same mount, just with a Sony sensor of high quality.
  2. Create a unique small evil camera as small as Pentax Auto 110 was in past with real small lenses and a small sensor.
  3. Make an entree level EVIL that in future wil make entry level DSLR like K-x obsolete. New micro-K-mount that with an adapter will take all current lenses but also new lenses. Give it APS-c sensor like K-x/K-r.
  4. Make a high-end EVIL wit a FullFrame sensor with the current K-mount so all lenses will fitt. No nonsens about thinner camera, since it is to use with big lenses. (maybe even Trans-Lucent).
  5. Leave this new market between P&S and DSLR to others and make no money out of it.

To me number 1 and 4 make the most sence.

Number 5, doing nothing in a time that entry leven DSLR will be going out of the market due to all the EVIL's is not smart, and in this same time P&S is losing ground to iPhone and all others smartphone's. In P&S the only real future is bridge camera and rough camera's like W90.

I think this still stands. The Q is among us, but we don't know if it will be in 5 years or that it is just for a short while. As is with all new mounts that came along the past years.

So I gave this a new look:

I can see one new mount that could work. But only if it can be combined with new electronicconnections. Since Ricoh already uses a like M-mount, they maybe can update it with electronics for new modern lenses. Most importantly is that it keeps it's backward compatability with old M-lenses! New lenses with an electronic focussing motor should be controlled by the camera. So you create in this way a M-mount (translucent) mirrorless camera for wich you only make a small number of new lenses. Not to dismiss K-mount, but to attrackt new users to the Pentax group by giving them a new camera. Ideal also with a FF sensor.

This would shave of a part of the flange distance, from 45,46mm down to 27,80mm but mainly opends a hole new market of lenses that people can use on that new camera-line.

Yes it can work, but I wouldn't put energy in it to much since there is still a lot to do for the K-mount series.
07-07-2012, 01:55 PM   #2954
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I've changed my mind about changing the K mount.

Pentax needs to introduce the Kaf3 mount in their upcoming FF body.

It would include the SDM autofocus contact points, and reintroduce mechanical aperture coupling.

THAT would be a change that people would go insane (in a good way) over.
07-07-2012, 02:42 PM   #2955
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Ron:
1. It doesn't make any sense to join a competitor's format, when you have your own. What for, to hurt your main system? To put yourself at a competitive disadvantages? To make me-too cameras? Should they join Panasonic/Olympus also on making heavy losses?
Pentax would not have access to special sensors, btw; but to whatever is available to Panasonic/Olympus.
2. Already done - Pentax Q.
3. It doesn't make any sense; what kind of entry level would it be? Buy it, buy lenses and when you're ready to go for a higher end camera, surprise - your lenses won't work on a DSLR.
4. It doesn't make sense; why not a full fledged DSLR?
5. They're already there.

Compatibility with M lenses (and the few users who might buy a Pentax because of that) is irrelevant, for Pentax. Show me a plan where they can sell tens of thousands cameras per month, please.
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