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10-21-2011, 02:27 AM   #301
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frogfish Quote
I'm not at all sure that it's not a very viable economic feasibility. The 645D currently costs x3 or x4 times what a FF camera costs and is still a success. Would a FF camera sell x3 or x4 more than a 645D ? It certainly would. The lens line-up is another issue but on camera sales alone I don't see a Pentax FF - the lack of which has cost Pentax umpteen sales in cameras and lenses over the years as users switch to CaNikon - failing.
The 645D is a godsend for all those people who had a Pentax 645 system and no digital - there are few alternatives and the glass for the 645 system is very renowned - if you will it came almost too late. A ff-DSLR from Pentax would certainly be much too late for all those who definitely needed FF. These are gone and have invested in CaNikon-gear - possibly Sony, but their attempts are not yet economically viable and Sony does have much fuller pockets than Pentax/Hoya or Pentax/Ricoh might have. It is a pretty big investment to develop a FF-camera practically from scratch as you cannot compare an MZ-5 or an LX to a digital version of the same camera - just think of the size of body you would need to incorporate the anti-shake with this considerably bigger sensor. Whether these costs could be recovered from the camera sales alone would be one question, whether all those people who say they would buy the cam also would buy lenses is also questionable as most argue that they already have the glass. I'd love Pentax to come out with a 400/4 EDIF or a 500/4.5 EDIF, but I also don't see that on the horizon as the same rules apply - you'd have to sell enough to earn money on top of the investment and this is possible with a 645D - the pricetag suggests that - but not in the competitive market of FF-DSLRs. I am not so optimistic as I can see all around me that people go for smaller and all-in products and not for cumbersome equipment. By the way - most DSLR-owners probably still use their camera most during their holidays (just as an aside I shoot an average of 2,000 pics/month and alas, I am not on holiday all the time....)

10-21-2011, 02:28 AM   #302
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
+1, I have the same thoughts. It's a very good moment to drop K-mount at all and switch to mirrorless.
If you hate the Pentax K so much, go find your own system - instead of saying we should all give up on our equipment.
10-21-2011, 02:30 AM   #303
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QuoteOriginally posted by asahiflex Quote
so you want pentax to commit suicide?
+1,000,000
10-21-2011, 02:51 AM   #304
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
So you want Pentax to commit suicide? The last thing they need is yet another mount.
Pentax was late to switch from screw mount to bayonet. And lost some market share - never again it was a leading SLR maker as in the days of Spotmatic. It is not a question of whether or not to go mirrorless, it is a question of when.
Suicide is to keep making cameras with obsolete construction, and SLR is becoming obsolete as we chat. Camera company producing DSLRs with M37 screwmount wouldn't survive today. Camera company producing SLRs won't survive tomorrow.

Did Pentax dropped M42 mount? No, at least not initially. But now it is much less convenient to use M42 lenses than it was with K1000.
It will be MORE convenient to use manual K, M42, 645 and 67 lenses with mirrorless camera than it is now with Pentax K-mount DSLRs. And for AF K lenses with adapter it will be same as now. Look here if you don't believe me:
Sony NEX-5n Field Review


Last edited by Foma; 10-21-2011 at 03:20 AM.
10-21-2011, 03:20 AM   #305
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
So you want Pentax to commit suicide? The last thing they need is yet another mount.
Not introducing another mount would be the real suicide - Pentax needs to enter the serious segment of the mirrorless market some day soon anyway. But dropping the K-mount immediately wouldn't make sense, there's still a large market for APS-C DSLRs for a couple of years. The question is how long the much smaller market for OVF FF cameras will last. If it just lasts a couple of years, the idea of jumping directly to FF mirrorless makes a lot of sense!

But it leaves me wondering how they will handle the mirrorless mass market. If they introduced FF mirrorless, they would, with that camera and the Q, be in two very niche parts of the mirrorless market only.
10-21-2011, 03:22 AM   #306
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QuoteOriginally posted by angus Quote
The 645D is a godsend for all those people who had a Pentax 645 system and no digital - there are few alternatives and the glass for the 645 system is very renowned - if you will it came almost too late. A ff-DSLR from Pentax would certainly be much too late for all those who definitely needed FF. These are gone and have invested in CaNikon-gear - possibly Sony
I don't see why it would be much too late. New users come to the fold every day, many ex-Pentax users would buy a Pentax FF because they didn't want to leave the brand in the first place or because they can now use the lenses they didn't part with (e.g. FAs or Pentax's pancake primes - you see this all the time, people switch to the 5DII or D700 but keep a K20d or Kx specifically to use with their favourite Pentax lenses), and there is a continuous flux of Pentax users in various stages of their photographic development that when they reach the stage of needing/wanting a FF and have a Pentax option - most would take it.

QuoteOriginally posted by angus Quote
but their attempts are not yet economically viable and Sony does have much fuller pockets than Pentax/Hoya or Pentax/Ricoh might have.
Well Ricoh (Pentax is really just a brand now) is a much larger company than Pentax was so I'm not sure how how accurate that is/will be. Ricoh had a net income of 187m thru Q2 compared to Sony's 2B loss so again although Sony is x4 bigger than Ricoh it may or may not have the resolve Ricoh should have to make it's new acquisition successful.

QuoteOriginally posted by angus Quote
It is a pretty big investment to develop a FF-camera practically from scratch as you cannot compare an MZ-5 or an LX to a digital version of the same camera - just think of the size of body you would need to incorporate the anti-shake with this considerably bigger sensor. Whether these costs could be recovered from the camera sales alone would be one question,
But it's hardly starting from scratch - it's starting pretty much as Sony did - well better actually - (and it seems their sales are very slack but they still make money) - with Pentax's history and new R&D at their disposal . The K5 is still a good base to expand upon.

QuoteOriginally posted by angus Quote
whether all those people who say they would buy the cam also would buy lenses is also questionable as most argue that they already have the glass.
yes but it's not a finite limit per se. - there is a constant stream of new users, and of course buyers of glass, and if more users stay with the brand then that means less 2nd hand glass circulating and more new lens sales.

QuoteOriginally posted by angus Quote
I'd love Pentax to come out with a 400/4 EDIF or a 500/4.5 EDIF, but I also don't see that on the horizon as the same rules apply - you'd have to sell enough to earn money on top of the investment and this is possible with a 645D - the pricetag suggests that - but not in the competitive market of FF-DSLRs.
In general I'd agree with that first sentence, however I'm sure a new 500/5.6 and a re-release of the phenomenal 250-600 would be successful and retain even more Pentax users who may not want a FF but do want longer glass.

QuoteOriginally posted by angus Quote
I am not so optimistic as I can see all around me that people go for smaller and all-in products and not for cumbersome equipment. By the way - most DSLR-owners probably still use their camera most during their holidays (just as an aside I shoot an average of 2,000 pics/month and alas, I am not on holiday all the time....)
I'm sure most DSLR users do take their camera on holiday .. but I'm not sure how many FF DSLR users take their camera with them (though it is probably still a high number - I know I would) !

Last edited by Frogfish; 10-21-2011 at 03:35 AM.
10-21-2011, 03:26 AM   #307
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I see only polite answer from Pentax and nothing else.

"We take your letter into consideration". But I see 21 pages of discussion... I don't understand.
10-21-2011, 03:27 AM   #308
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QuoteOriginally posted by Foma Quote
Pentax was late to switch from screw mount to bayonet. And lost some market share - never again it was a leading SLR maker as in the days of Spotmatic. It is not a question of whether or not to go mirrorless, it is a question of when.
Suicide is to keep making cameras with obsolete construction, and SLR is becoming obsolete as we chat. Camera company producing DSLRs with M37 screwmount wouldn't survive today. Camera company producing SLRs won't survive tomorrow.

Did Pentax dropped M42 mount? No, at least not initially. But now it is much less convenient to use M42 lenses than it was with K1000.
It will be MORE convenient to use manual K, M42, 645 and 67 lenses with mirrorless camera than it is now with Pentax K-mount DSLRs. And for AF K lenses with adapter it will be same as now. Look here if you don't believe me:
Sony NEX-5n Field Review
The 5n (I camera I really like and have investigated in depth) does not have AF adapters for K mount lenses so that comment is misleading .. it is no different to using a K mount lens on any other brand with a shorter registration distance and an adapter.

10-21-2011, 03:28 AM   #309
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I think its a will be a wrong move. Only very small group of photographers worldwide need a FF dslr. Let Nikon & Canon worry about that segment & Pentax should not joint this race at all. Keep at APS -C & improve noise at High Iso. Upgrade HD video for real practical usage. Put in a swivel screen, build in wireless radio transmitter for any external flash.Incorporate some practical technologies & functions. Aim for the prosumer market which is growing big.
10-21-2011, 03:29 AM   #310
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Not introducing another mount would be the real suicide - Pentax needs to enter the serious segment of the mirrorless market some day soon anyway. But dropping the K-mount immediately wouldn't make sense, there's still a large market for APS-C DSLRs for a couple of years. The question is how long the much smaller market for OVF FF cameras will last. If it just lasts a couple of years, the idea of jumping directly to FF mirrorless makes a lot of sense!
I wonder just how much Canon / Nikon agree with you ... not a lot I suspect. You should give them a call to wake them up before they crash and burn !
10-21-2011, 03:31 AM   #311
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I see only polite answer from Pentax and nothing else.

"We take your letter into consideration". But I see 21 pages of discussion... I don't understand.
Desire wins hands down over logic ?
10-21-2011, 03:33 AM   #312
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QuoteOriginally posted by Foma Quote
I wish Pentax to produce a mirrorless FF camera.

1. Large sensor cameras are going mirrorless as contrast detection AF catches up with the phase detection AF. No reason to invest in competitive FF DSLR and then switch to mirrorless in a few years.
The only niche left for bulky DSLRs will be action shooting with the fastest AF in existence, and Pentax is unlikely to beat AF performance of D3s and 1Dx anyways.

2. The only mirrorless FF camera on the market is the Leica M9, which does not have AF. Market is waiting for such camera, and Pentax could have a FF mirrorless market for itself for some time.
Pentax also could produce a first weatherproof mirrorless camera - for whatever reason other camera makers left weatherproof camera market for their DSLRs and compacts with smallish sensors.

3. Pentax Q is the smallest mirrorless (interchangeable lens) camera and won't compete with FF mirrorless camera.

4. FF mirrorless camera is also less likely to take users away from the 645D.

5. You could still have a phase detection AF with FA and DA lenses using adapter, as NEX users with LA-EA2 Lens Adapter. So it could be 2 cameras in 1 - DSLR(or DSLT) for those who need DSLR, mirrorless camera for the rest.

6. Using Focus Peaking in Live View and EVF, FF mirrorless camera could provide a better focus assistance with old manual leneses than current DSLRs do. Ricoh already has Focus Peaking technology in GXR A12 - why not to use it in Pentax?
You could even have AF confirmation with lenses that was designed as scale-focusing only, like Contax G Hologon 16mm or Zeiss Distagon T* ZM 15mm.

7. Mirrorless = short flange focal distance = ability to use lenses from any other brand/system with adapter = additional market for FF mirrorless camera.

8. Mirrorless = small and light camera body, even with SR

9. Mirrorless = small and optically good wide lenses = good for street shooting and landscape photography.

10. Small and light weatherproof FF camera with good wide lenses - a landscape photographer's dream come true.

I really I wish Pentax to produce a mirrorless FF camera.
A FF mirrorless from Pentax would be amazing especially with all the FA Limiteds!!!
10-21-2011, 03:35 AM   #313
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
So you want Pentax to commit suicide? The last thing they need is yet another mount.
Why suicide? They won't lose anything with full automation support adapter.
10-21-2011, 04:00 AM   #314
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I see only polite answer from Pentax and nothing else.

"We take your letter into consideration". But I see 21 pages of discussion... I don't understand.


But you should have seen enough FF threads here by now to understand
10-21-2011, 04:05 AM   #315
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frogfish Quote
I wonder just how much Canon / Nikon agree with you ... not a lot I suspect. You should give them a call to wake them up before they crash and burn !
But Canon and Nikon are in a completely different situation since they already have FF SLR systems, and zillions of professional customers using their systems! It still makes sense for them to milk this market for what it's worth, but entering this market is a different thing. But of course Nikon and Canon may fall into the trap of relying on this market for too long, I personally think Nikon's 1 smell of bad business (a system made crippled just to avoid internal competition).
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